Armenian's Programmers' Association

[Programmer C++]

I suggest you dear programmers to make Armenian's Programmer's Association(APA) and to make programming developed in our country. Who accept this term, please contact me in arseny@freenet.am

[greka]

Actually there already is some association of "software developers" in Armenia.
I forgot the exact naming..

HPL, former Boumerang, EpygiLabs, "Haykakan Cragrer", etc. etc. etc.

Are you offering something different ?

[VX]

To Greco El
How I understand he want to create no-commercial organization.... organizations that u've list
are commercial.

to Programmer C++ I'd like to join, and write open source projects.

[greka]

well, that sounds interesting!
In that case I'll participate, too

[Edgar M.]

Barev tgherk,

Es inchi ek grel u chek hetevum??
Enkan lav gaghapar a et open source project grel@, ekek iskakanic zbaghvenk dranov.

Es el em patrast masnakcelu.

Orinak es karajarkei Web-based projectner grel,
asenk "Diractory System", MialSystem,... kam inch vor ban vor es pahin shat haykakan ejer dra karig@ unen.

Es inks der masnakcats chem nman bani, u chem patkeracnum vonc kareli a kazmakerpel.
Bayc ete inch vor mek@ handzn arni et gorts@ kareli a sksel... :cool:

[Edgar M.]

auuuuuuuuu

[Gates]

Originally posted by Greco El:
former Boumerang To Greco El:
Former :confused: :confused: :confused:
Et ova qez tenc ban asel, Boomerang Software-@ kar, ka u klini! ;)

[Camelot]

http://www.uite.am - u menya tam drug dazhe rabotaet. Zamechu chto etot Union ne orientiruetsya tol'ko konkretno na programmerov.

P.S. da, ya bi tozhe s udv. prisoedinilsya bi. zvuchit zamanchivo! :)

[serty]

Lyudi esli chto nibud dodumaete dayte znat:)

[Programmer C++]

Hargeli programistner, ekeq arden gone mi qajl katarenq ajd uxxutyamb, iharke, im zbaxvatsutyun@ chi nerum shat ushadrutyun darcnel ajs mtqin, bajc cankacoxner@ karox en arajnordel ajs idean.
Kareli e nax ev araj mi site patrastel, vortex klinen mer miutyan bolor andamneri tvjalnern u kontaktajin hascener@, sranov gone arajin qajl@ kkatarvi, da kogni mez mimjanc aveli lav chanachel u hesht haxordakcvel ajn xndirneri shurj, voronq kapvats en Armenian's programers' Association(APA) -i het. Ete uzum eq da anel, arden karox eq uxarkel dzer tvjalner@:
anun, azganun, heraxos, e-mail, dzer sovorats tsragravorman lezun ev dzer gnahatakan@(inch makardaki giteq tvjal lezun).
Shnorhakalutyun. Amenajn barin.

[strax.]

Shat lav mitk a site sarkel@, bayc wortegh host patka a host arvi? ete kan inch vor arajarkutyunner host-i het kapvac, grek stegh, iharke cankali klni vor hmaravorutyun unenank scriptner ashxatacnelu :) .

Isk site sarkelu harc@(ete duk bolord shat ek zbaghvac), es karogh em gone eji skzbnakan kmaxk@ gcem. nu hetagayum kzargacnenk....

Armenian's programers' Association(APA) -i het. Ete uzum eq da anel, arden karox eq uxarkel dzer tvjalner@:... ur ugharkenk??

mek el kareli a et tvyalneri het ugharkel nayev, arajarkutyunner kapvac ashxatanki ughghutyan het, (i.e. es arajarkum em grel Web-Based programms).

[Rust]

Ooof.

Let me criticize this a little.
I want to see - why shall I join?
I'm a student of early grades, with some already compiled programs in my portfolio, all of them based EXCLUSIVELY on enthusiasm. Knowledge of writing all of them I've gained by reading thousands of books, printing hundreds of manuals, thinking hundreds of minutes on one little **** . That's it - I'm a Windows programmer and if anyone doesn't know, Windows is close-source. So you have to crawl to everything by yourself, and invent the bicycle everyone every day invents, but FOR NOW I SEE AND UNDERSTAND that it is CORRECT. My knowledge is MY OWN intellectual property, I don't want to give it to some teenager who is copying my sources and replacing 'Written by Rust' with 'Written by Oozbek', plus changing some colors or the button captions. That's not fair, because tomorrow he may POTENTIALLY become my concurrent for job offers... Or no? OK. That's about Job offers/Copyright problems that Opensource brings. Now the next side.
You may [and you will] say - 'but damn you wrote that you're inventing an already invented bicycle - why don't you just take a look at how did Torwalds already invent it??' - the answer is simple - because by looking at others' bicycles you can never understand it's creation process the way you'll do if you'll do it yourself. Or no?

SUMMARY::
Opensource is not bad, and indeed not good - you say it assists IT development, but DAMN it develops STUPID brains, because it's a MECHANICAL way of learning - yea, it makes more programmers who are able to write a WinAmp, but NOONE of them is able to write something MORE or LESS, unless they didn't see the new program's source... Or no?

I accept Opensource... It's a great project. But only if you're in your 50th age, working in your own corporation or at least as a leading programmer of Borland... Or something like that. It's like that - when you'll compile your own Windows, you can freely distribute your Calculator as an opensource... Either it is MEANINGLESS.
WHY SHALL YOU??

You make MECHANICAL BRAINS with your opensource.

PS: Usually the site is being created when THE REST is done... But we are Armenians :)

[Ektich]

Well, in that case - let's close all universities, and keep only libraries open. Let students invent Newton Laws over and over again, because in that case they will trully understand Mechanics. Let them invent steam engines or you name it!

Opensource is NOT about copy-paste-ing. It's accumulated wisdom of many programmesr like you and me! By looking at someone's code you LEARN how to write (and sometimes how NOT to write).

Let lasy brains copy-paste pieces they need without understanding, but why invent bysicle all over and over and over again?

If you dont want to give your knowlege to someone else - keep it. No-one forcing you to do it. What all this noise about? Are you scared of teenagers who will produce better programs than you by copy-paste-ing something from SourceForge? You know better than me they will not! One must have brains to even do copy-paste.
Of course you will never understand how bicycle works by looking at it, but if you will tear it apart and then assemble it back - you will! Don't just use it, look at every single line of the code and READ it. Be honest, haven't you learned something from someone else's code, have you? I'm sure u had! So did I and anyone who IS a Programmer (not those kids who know "Visual C++" and dont know api-mapi ;) ))

Imagine all great scienticst of the past would say "why for the Christ's sake shall I tell everyone my inventions? They MINE!"? Wjere the science would be right know? And what's the big difference between differential analysis and C-code?

[Rust]

Let's close them... But you forgot about one thing :) You pay for exactly everything you learn in the universities, don't you? :) Or even if you DON'T, the State pays for you... It's their JOB - to teach for MONEY... They [teachers] need money to buy food and not to die... Or no? :) That's the first side... Second:: May I ask you a question? For now WHAT DID YOU LEARN in the University?? I mean... the question was wrong. What did THEY TEACH YOU? Yes, I say that everyone has to invent Newton's laws again... Maybe that sounds too strange and lame, but IMHO it's true. Again, you had many correct ideas in your post, I agree with them, but damn again the hecking problem is copyrights. Yea, it's an egoism, TRUE EGOISM, but 'let the one throw at me a stone first, who is not an egoist' :) Damn, ask from VX the source of his chat -- he's STUPID if he'll give it to you... Because THE LESS PEOPLE KNOW CHAT WRITING, THE MORE VALUABLE HE IS. Or no? I undestand that it is a 'high morale', but how can he feed his family, if there are more CHAT WRITERS than job offers?? He'll never give you the source. And noone CLEVER will.
That's it.
What about::
"...Imagine all great scienticst of the past would say "why for the Christ's sake shall I tell everyone my inventions? They MINE!"? Wjere the science would be right know?..." - hmm the science would be RIGHT HERE. What, in your opinion, ALL scientists DID?? :) Hehehe, they were acting JUST THE WAY you wrote.

[strax.]

2 Rust,
in some cases you r right, but please don't forget that we r doing this to make programming developed in our country

of cource we can write both open source and close souce projects.

[greka]

guys, you're talking about relation between practice and theory in our everyday life.. :)

and all of you right, on my opinion.
You're inventing Newton's law, Rust, and at the same time you're actually using the knowledge of predecessors in your professional field ('cose you're not writing the chat programm using Assembler, for example, or not inventing the sorting or some other kind of algorithms, etc.)

There is a barely noticeable division (in the context of meaningfulness) which relates to the Open-source development.

If you're working in a small town with a few IT-companies then sharing your source-codes will (may) be harmful for your professional future (if you're linking it with that town only).


Why just "may be", not "will be" - because it may be harmful if you'll stop improving yourself on everyday basis.

(real-life example for you: I know a lot of Soviet-time "programmers" that vociferates that they are great programers, but all they can do till this time remains the same Intel's Assembler)

On the other hand, you simply can not invent everithing from zero, otherwise you'll spend a few monthes on the mathematical proove of the hashing mechanizm, for examples (if you have not math appropriate background).

And you HAVE TO USE the knowledge of others.

Guys, you just have to decide how much knowledge is acceptable as a "desirable minimum" for starting development of programms :)

[Programmer C++]

Dear programers, the question is to make an association for programmers to promote programming in our country, not for business, we'll do it volunteerly. We need volunteers who wants to do it for Armenia, it doesn't matter, we write open source programs or no, the aim is quackly develop IT's and other spheres in Armenia by writing good and useful programs for different spheres, for instance economocal, engineering and other programs. The aim is also to make available this programs for all Armenians, who will need that.

[Rust]

OK, in that case I agree... Only if the programs that are gonna be written will NOT be opensource.

2 Greco El::
And, in your opinion, is Yerevan a small town, or no?
Indeed you have to develop your knowledge every day, every second, every INSTANT, but damn why give them a chance to reach you?? I don't write chats on ASM, yes, but:
1. I CAN write them on ASM.
2. I PAY for the manuals and tools that I use during the creation of my chat. I pay for OS, I pay for computer, I pay for IIS, for IIS's manual, I pay for ASPEdit, can you understand?? They SELL it. They have INCOME, why shall I GIVE THE SOURCES OF MY CHAT FOR FREE????

Thanks.
I think I'm right.

[greka]

Rust, you can't write a chat on ASSEMBLER.
:)
Just because it's a time-wasting work.
:) Even if you know the Intel's Assembler language, you also have to know protocols, network hardware, etc.
Or you're talking about chat's User Interface written on assembler ? That's not a "chat-written-on-Assembler" itself, isn't it ?

Do not be so "theoretical", I'm speaking about real life.

And about your payments...
Are you completely satisfied with the salary (or to be more correct: satisfied with your earnings) ?
I mean do you think that you're earning appropriate money for the job you're doing right now ?(I'm supposing that you're earning some money at this moment with programming)

If YES, then:
the open-source project is a some kind of hobby and you, as a man satisfied with your current (financial, intim, etc. :) ) state may (but not MUST) spend some time for just IDEA

if NOT, then:
why you're doing something NOT appropriate to your requirements (i'm talking about your job)?
If you really know that the software you're writing will be SOLD for MUCH MORE money that you're receiving (in terms of salary), then that means that you're doing an "open-source" project :D

"chut'-chut' ne schitaetsa" )
tipa "chut'-chut' deneg" :) )

Man, in any case the open-source is an IDEA, and as ANY idea it requires a BELEIVE. :)
A beleive that you're spending your life not only for your own money, but for fun, too.
May be for further fame, for simple respect by your colleagues, etc, etc, etc.

And NOBODY can proove a beleive :)
As NOBODY can prove an inanity of a beleive :)

[Amph]

You talked about this subject so much, and suddenly forgot 'bout it?
You can't do any real job, when you don't want to spend your time (and, maybe, money) for it.
1. When you think that any biz is too expansive for you (i mean your time) - forget it.
2. When you decide to start any job by creating a website - forget it.
3. When you start anything with thinking how it would be called - forget it.

This is my way of thinking.
I've seen a lot of good ideas here. Greco El (respect), Rust, and all of you said many interesting things. But the problem is not the open-source programming or time wasting. The problem is in conception. The problem (and i think, the main problem) is ORGANISATION.
I don't wanna say "ok, guys. if anyone decide to start this, i agree. call me then.".
And i don't wanna tell, that i can start it myself.

My point of view is the following: we all have to meet together somewhere (in real) and discuss this subject. That's the only way. IMHO.

[strax.]

2 Amph

Shat chisht es asum :agree: .
prosto es eli em asel vor nman ban chgitem vonc a kazmakerpvum, bayc ete mek@ @lni vor ira vra vercni et skzbi paher@, hetagayum amen inch ira hunov kgna, prosto petka a sksel!

mek el website-@ nra hamar kara carayi, vor irar het tenc shpvenk, voch te forumum, kam da kara @lni email-ov.
Real handipum@ partadir a, bayc asenk es vor Vanadzoric em, chem kara amen shabat gam Yerevan, u stipvac email-i kam WebSite-i gaghaparn a araj galis.

Thanks!

[Programmer C++]

Hargeli programistner, es karajarkem mi site patrastenq, wor cankacoxner@ karoxanan grancvel ajntex, heto grancumic het nor kareli a havaqner kazmakerpel u mshtakan kapi mej klinenq arden irar het. Ete karox eq dzer arajarkner@ xndrum em nerkajacreq, site patrastelu hamar, wori mej karox eq cgi, perl, php ogtagorcel, txerq@ arden apache -i server en gcel http://217.113.14.113 compi mej, menq karanq et patrastvac site@ et compi mej gcenq, ete hamadzajn eq u ete site-eri arajarkner linen, indz xndrum em texjak paheq.
Regards Arsen :agree:

[VX]

idznic el DNS poddrejkan.. *.wizard.am zonaum, (tipa community.wizard.am).
plus es karam ayd WEB tsragir@ grem.

[groul]

Zhoxovurd karox em dzer associaciaji hamar mi xndir arajarkel?

Greq mi hat keyboard driver vor Win9x-i tak Unicodov hajeren lini grel...

[Programmer C++]

Apres VX jan. ;)
Verjapes mek@ mi irakan gorts kani ajd uxxutyamb, es u erevi bolor programistnern el urax klinen dra hamar, cankali kliner wor bolor@ mi arajarkutyun anein site-i veraberjal, inch maseric a kazmvats linelu u inch tvjalner piti lracven programistneri koxmic?

[Edmon Maroukian]

Barev joxovurd chishta es programist chem, bayc es el karox em dzez ognel ete duq cankanum eq, vor iskakan granceq ayd hasarakakan kazmakerputyun@. Es karox em kanonadrutyun grel dra hamar vorpeszi duq karoxanaq orinakan dzevi grancvel Ardaradatutyan Naxararutyunum, bayc duq petq e indz aseq ayd HK i npatakner@ mnacats@ es kanem.

[Programmer C++]

Edmon shat urax em qo arajarkutyan hamar, es el ei da mtacel, wor grancenq ardaradatutyan naxararutyunum, bajc lav klini wor naxoroq ajd gorts@ handzn arnox mardik gtnenq, heto nor dra masin mtacenq, qani wor grancman het kapvac problemner kan, shat kuzei wor es el linei himnadir joxovi cucakum, bajc arden paveska em stacel, hunisin gnalu em banak. Es karox em dzez miajn ognel ajd site-i hamar server tramadrelov, naev tsragravorman het kapvac harcerum.

[gev2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by strax.:
[QB]2 Amph

->bayc ete mek@ @lni vor ira vra vercni et skzbi paher@, hetagayum amen inch ira hunov kgna, prosto petka a sksel!<-

indz tvum a menq arayshms patrast chenq ayd amen@ anenq miaynak..ev menak forum um qnnarkum@ heriq chi...

http://www.uite.am

UITE n arajarkec aydpisi ban olympiada i shamanak..
mejberum -> Duq karogh eq ashkhatel mer UMBRELLA i tak -< mejberman avart...

sa UITE naxagahi barern en...

kareli e hamagorcakcel..do u thing so ?