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Old 09.08.2004, 08:01   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid
Talking about corrida in movies, there is one gorgeous episode in Almadovar's "Talk to her"...
The most brutal and violent episode counts as gorgeous, isn't that so?
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Old 09.08.2004, 08:04   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Stone
May be you're right, Acid, but I'm sceptic. If the person has the violence inside, it must come out sooner or later. I think it's not enough seeing a Rome Circus, unless he(she) is a gladiator so one of the actors...
Cheers!
I will have to agree. Besides watching and enjoying an act of brutal violence might trigger one's appetite for more

Last edited by PsilocybeLarvae; 09.08.2004 at 08:59.
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Old 13.08.2004, 15:58   #18
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Hello everybody!
Hello Red_Stone! Thank you for interesting explanations.

I would like to say just a few words and clarify.. and possibly discuss what is the cruelty towards animals? How to draw a distinction between being cruel and not being such.

I can fully agree, it's abominable when the bulls are killed at Corrida. But at the same time the fight like one practiced in Portugal, where the bull is not killed, can just be absolutely astounding!... Both the picadore and the bull are just actors! masters! fighters! the last one even having much more strenghth, instead the first has his skills and tactics and brains and intuition..
The whole spectacle is so graseful, beautiful that it becomes an art not a fight! That is my viewpoint.. and here.. there is no kind of violence, cause they have somehow equal chances... I think.

Now, coming back to cruelty and violence.
I love animals very much, especially dogs, horses and elephants(they seem so kind) .
I agree Corrida is something like a Circus. But where is that edge the violence starts? If you look at it as a game- also for the animal..- is there any violence involved? Does the animal feel/realise that violence and restriction of its freedom? I believe the Circus animals are so used to their ''roles'' that they wouldn't prefer ''another life''.

If anyhow you will say that still violence exists cause they don't choose and just carry out men's orders and so on... I would say: is that also a violence when we have beef, port, turkey and chicken for dinner?


Last edited by Butterfly; 13.08.2004 at 16:46.
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Old 15.08.2004, 00:05   #19
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Barew Butterfly!

You have your opinion which I respect. However I would like to make just one correction to what you said and one clarification to what I related before.

The picadores are not used in the bullfight portuguese style. They are used in Spain for hiting the bulls repeatedly with stings that hurt (with wounds) for making them angrier, so better for being run (corrida means course, race). For me this is just a pure cruelty show. Compared to this, killing the bull is to be seen as the mercy stroke. When you referred the picadores you were willing to refer the knights, I think.

Now about violence with the animals in the circus. What I wished to refer wasn't the question of a choice not made by the animals. The serious (and true) thing is the violence used in most cases (when training) for forcing them to do what the "man" wants. They finish by doing all those nice things for fear of being punished if they don't do it! It's a well known problem but not so much of interest for the media. It doesn't sell...

Lav egheq!
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Old 15.08.2004, 08:17   #20
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By the way if i am not mistaken animal circus is banned in a number of countries.
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Old 15.08.2004, 15:21   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsilocybeLarvae
By the way if i am not mistaken animal circus is banned in a number of countries.
Never heard about it... but if it's true it must be some kind of fog curtain for hiding some more serious stuff...

Lav egheq!
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Old 16.08.2004, 11:40   #22
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Barev Red_Stone!

Thank you for your answer!

Of course, you are right, I didn't mean picadors, it was a mistake. You have mentioned- knights - I think that is the right word.

And here comes the confusion about all these terms and the question:
Can you please clarify what is the difference between matadors, toreadors, toreros, knights etc.?

I understood your point about the violence... and I totally support it.
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Old 16.08.2004, 19:44   #23
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My dear Butterfly, not being an expert in the field, I'm going to try to give you a rough idea about the meaning of those words:

Toreador/Torero (Toureiro in Portuguese) - it's the general word for any guy who faces the bull (standing alone) in the arena.

Matador (the same in Portuguese) - it's the "Torero" who is allowed to kill the bull in the arena. Literaly means "killer".

Rojoneador (only in Spain) - someone who faces the bull, alone, mounted on a horse, differing from what I called the "knight" because of the way they dress (as a rich farmer XIX century) and they haven't the "obligation" of giving the advantage to the bull's attack for rivetting the barbs (stings) on the bull's nap. Rojoneador means "the man of the rojones", rojones being the barbs (stings).

Cavaleiro Tauromáquico/Cavaleiro (only in Portugal) - the one I called as "knight". May be I could translate as "rider" or "horseman". I made it "knight" because he dresses as a noble of the XVI/XVII century.

Picador (only in Spain) - A guy who (mounted on a protected horse) has as his function "preparing" the bull for being run by means of hitting the bull with a big barb repeatedly. You can see a "picador in one of the pictures Acid published.

There is also the group of forcados (only in Portugal) who who achieve to dominate the bull by hand. Especially the guy who first faces the bull, sometimes has a lot of trouble, before the remaining of the group arrives.

I've collected some pictures (the best I could find for the moment) for
illustrating some of this. I call your special attention to the "forcado".

Lav egheq!
Attached Thumbnails
Cavaleiro.jpg   Forcado.jpg  
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Old 05.10.2004, 23:47   #24
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I did not realize crime was so high in Armenia Souren that you suggest having this kind of entertainment in your country to show the people all the brutality they want to see . I my self have seen bull fighting in Spain and Mexico , and I will never see it again . I love animals too much to see this type of crulity.
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Old 19.10.2004, 21:41   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid
But if this entertainment could possibly decrease criminal activity in my country I would love to have one similar arena here. People can see brutality as much as they want, enjoy it and receive enough adrenalin.
I am afraid it works the other way around - being exposed to violence makes people more violent. At least that has been more or less proven for watching violence on TV. I'm not sure for this case though. Any psycologist's opinion?
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