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Old 08.08.2004, 00:00   #1
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Arrow Bullfighting - Corrida

Hello!
I have two things to ask you guys. Is that true that in Portugal it is not permitted to kill bulls during corrida and they actually bring matadorеs from Spain to do that?

And what do you guys think of this kind of "entertainment"?







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Old 08.08.2004, 06:03   #2
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Cruel and senseless thing, don't like it.
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Old 08.08.2004, 11:19   #3
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I have nothing against, it. Though, I must say it doesn't entertain me a bit.
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Old 08.08.2004, 14:16   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid
Is that true that in Portugal it is not permitted to kill bulls during corrida and they actually bring matadors from Spain to do that?
Hi!

First of all I must clarify something about the "matadores". It's the last degree in the formation of the guys (and a few girls) who fight the bulls in the arena spanish style (standing). You can find "matadores" who are spanish, portuguese, and as far as I know some south american spanish speaking. They are the only ones who can kill the bull in the arena.

It's true that in Portugal it is forbidden to kill the bull as the final of a bull fight. But a couple of years ago due to a repeated lack of strength from the authorities for many years in imposing the accomplishement of the law in Barrancos (a small town near the spanish border), where they used to kill a bull every year in an improvised arena, as part of some old festivities, a law passed making an exception for Barrancos.

From the juridic point of view it appears that it remains forbidden for a portuguese "matador" to killing the bull in portuguese territory, even in Barrancos. So for keeping the "tradition", they hired spanish ones...

I'll issue some other posts later on about other aspects of this subject.

Cheers!
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Old 08.08.2004, 14:35   #5
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Thanks for the clarifications Red Stone! Will be waiting for further info.
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Old 08.08.2004, 18:14   #6
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Red Stone, I do not understand how come it is forbidden to kill a bull for a Portuguese matador but it is ok for a Spanish one? Why aren't Spanish matadors subject to Portuguese law when in Portugal

acid, killing for entertainment? No, thank you. I agree with Gayka here
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Old 08.08.2004, 18:34   #7
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But if this entertainment could possibly decrease criminal activity in my country I would love to have one similar arena here. People can see brutality as much as they want, enjoy it and receive enough adrenalin.
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Old 08.08.2004, 19:13   #8
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Hi again!

Sorry but I've been very busy today and only can make this in "installments".

To PsilocybeLarvae: I'll reply to you later. Now a bit of a description of a bull fight old portuguese style.

First of all I must apologize for not having pictures to illustrate what I'm going
to say. The pictures published by Acid are from some spanish arena, except the last one which was probably taken in the French Basque Country.

Have you ever seen the movie "Quo Vadis?"? Or read the book with the same name from Henryk Sienkiewicz? The story goes mostly in Rome when Nero was the Emperor.

There is a scene in the movie during a "spectacle" in Rome Circus when a guy
(Ursus) faces a bull, trying to defend his queen, tied to a piece of wood. And in the story Ursus defeated the bull. In the movie, the guy who really faces (alone) the bull (a real one), and takes him by the horns, is a portuguese (Nuno Barreto, already died), chief of a group of "forcados".

The "forcados" are groups always included in a bull fight old portuguese style, and they are the last to intervene, dominating the bull by hand. As far as I know only the Portuguese cultivate this activity.

My grandfather (my mother's dad), the man to whom I owe the basis of my political conscience (my father died when I was 5), was very fond of bull fights old portuguese style, and when I was a kid (started at 10) he used to take me (shouldn't say it but I was his preferred grandson) to seeing some.

The first part (Courtesies) is a kind of exhibition of all the people and animals
who intervene (no bulls at this stage): the knights dressed in XVI or XVII
centuries style, on their well prepared and richly harnessed horses, the "peões de brega", the guys who later on - if necessary - will call the attention of the bull with their red big caps, and the "forcados". What I liked more was the ability of knights and horses for doing all those gestures greeting the public.

In the second part each knight on his horse (with no defenses, unlike the spanish "picadores", who have a kind of cover as you can see in one of the pictures Acid published) faces a bull. Usually the bull's horns are covered for avoiding that the points make serious wounds to the horse. While not fully accomplished at present, there are rules, in the sense of giving advantage to the bull, which means that it's for the bull to attack the knight/horse and not the other way round.
The knight should put (one at a time) a couple of long stings on the nap of the bull (the area is very strict, and if failed the knight will hear whistles of
disapproval), and then goes for the short stings always under the same rules.
The only time I really liked one part of this was when a knight decided to break a pair of stings, staying with two pieces of iron of 20 cm one in each hand, giving the horse free rein, guiding him with only his knees (he used no spurs) waiting for the attack of the bull, and then fixing those two shorty stings on the "right" place without the horse even being touched by the bull.

Once the knight and his horse go out, the "forcados" come in and without any artifact (just their hands, strength and ability), they make the bull appear to be an ordinary domestic ox. This part, I like, especially for the action of the guy who receives the first impact of the 500/600 Kg of the bull (once again the advantage to the bull) and achieves to close himself between the two horns, sometimes for 20/30 meters before the first helpers of the group intervene.

... To be continued...

Cheers!
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Old 08.08.2004, 19:39   #9
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Talking about corrida in movies, there is one gorgeous episode in Almadovar's "Talk to her"...
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Old 08.08.2004, 20:59   #10
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Hi!

Now the other part (the most difficult one ): my opinion about bull fights.

Generally speaking I don't like them (not even the old portuguese style ones, that have let's say some sugar for the medicine) because I hate any form of violence.

But on the other hand I must agree that in this case (as many others around the globe) we face local deep tradictions (spanish and portuguese), and we have no right to interfere with it.

I could put it this way: have you ever thought about how much violence is involved in preparing animals for a show in a circus?

For me (my personal opinion, of course) every form of violence should be forbidden, and in this I include bull fights, box, wrestling, a lot of computer games, etc.

Reverting to the bull fights there is a lot of discussions in Portugal about killing or not killing the bull in the arena. Theoretically, in Portugal they are killed afterwards, in private, for further public consumption of the meat. For me it is a fake problem as the question should be about having or not bull fights, and I think that if they (the politicians) had the courage for it they should make a referendum about it I'm convinced that the "No" would win in Portugal (especially in the north of the country) and loose in Spain. But they don't dare doing it as there are many "lobbies" involved...

Ok now let me comment some of the previous posts...

Cheers!
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Old 08.08.2004, 21:01   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayka
Cruel and senseless thing, don't like it.
Neither do I, my dear, but that's the way it is...
Lav egheq!
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Old 08.08.2004, 21:09   #12
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Well, as to me, I'm strongly against it People kill animals just for fun! Is it normal?
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Old 08.08.2004, 21:12   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsilocybeLarvae
Red Stone, I do not understand how come it is forbidden to kill a bull for a Portuguese matador but it is ok for a Spanish one? Why aren't Spanish matadors subject to Portuguese law when in Portugal
Well dear the principle is that in Portugal it is forbidden to kill the bull in the arena.
However due to the yearly repetition of law violations (a tradition with more than 50 years) in a small town (Barrancos), where the police didn't act strongly (here I must say that if they did, the result would certainly be a blood bath), two years ago the Government issued an exception law for that particular town, in a particular date of the year.

I'm not a jurist myself but it appears that there are doubts (juridic ones) about this exception law applying to the portuguese "matadores". So...

Lav egheq!
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Old 08.08.2004, 21:24   #14
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by the way, guys, a couple of years ago there was something like corrida here... I stayed at home, though I had tickets. Did anyone of you go there?
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Old 08.08.2004, 21:33   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid
But if this entertainment could possibly decrease criminal activity in my country I would love to have one similar arena here. People can see brutality as much as they want, enjoy it and receive enough adrenalin.
May be you're right, Acid, but I'm sceptic. If the person has the violence inside, it must come out sooner or later. I think it's not enough seeing a Rome Circus, unless he(she) is a gladiator so one of the actors...
Cheers!
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