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Old 08.09.2002, 12:10   #1
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Question Civilizaciya: progress, ili ... ?

Друзья, предлагаю высказать свой мысли по поводу научно-технологического прогресса (NTP): что он дал человечеству в целом и отдельным людям, какие перспективы, по-вашему, он сулит нам в будущем, и в чем конечная его цель ?

Сразу скажу, что у меня к NTP неоднозначное отношение. С одной стороны, человечество вышло из животной стадии своего существования, так что мы не можем жить как жили наши обезьяноподобные предки. С другой стороны, люди совсем немного изменились за тысячи лет, мы все еще обладаем всеми качествами, которые присущи нашим диким 'братьям', и в этом смысле NTP ничего не дал людям. Так в чем же смысл NTP, этой грандиозной стройки, в которой участвуют почти 6 mlrd населения нашей планеты ?
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Old 11.09.2002, 06:01   #2
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Zdes', estestvenno, nado zatronut' ves'ma funadmental'nye voprosy, na kotorye odnoznachnogo otveta poka nikto ne dal. Ili kazhdyj nakhodit otvet sam dlya sebvya. Kto my takie, kuda my idem i otkudova, v konce koncov ?????
Mnogie filosofy polagali chto cherez zhizn' Bessoznatel'noe pytaetsya obresti Soznatel'nost. Kak skazano v Kabbale : " The Breath becomes a minerla, mineral becomes plant, plant becomes animal, animal becomes human, human becomes God".
Takov, v obschem, khod evolyucii. I posemu ya schitayu, chto glavnoe v zhizni - eto dukhovno-emocional'nyj opyt, kotoryj my postepenno nabiraem. Cel' ego - obresti mudrost, dobrotu, tvorcheskie sposobnosti. Obretaetsya eto v rezul'tate mnozhestva ispytanij. Esli tebe na dannom etape plokho, znachit ty poluchaesh' ocherednoj urok. Ocherednoj etap raboty nad soboj i svoim nesovershenstvom. Sovershenstvo sostoit v osoznanii celostnosti vsekh lyudey i Vselennoy. KOgda spolna osoznaesh' etu celostnost, uzhe netu mesta stradaniyam, obidam, zlosti... I spadayut material'nye pregrady. My poka na puti.

Chto kasaetsya konkretno tvoego voprosa...POnyatno, chto tekhnogennaya civiliaciya ot vysheupomjanutogo oschuscheniya edinstva ochen' daleka. No ona, po slovam Karla Yunga, dolzhna maksimal'no razvit' nashe soznanie, chto potom soedinit' ego s podsoznaniem ( kotoroe uzhe dostatochno khorosho razvito, khotya by u mnogikh dikikh narodov, kotorykh my schitaem "primitivnymi"). Alkhimiki simvolicheski eto opisyvali kak brak mezhdu korolem i korolevoj.( gde zhenschina predstavlyaet podsoznanie, konechno).
Tak chto, vse proiskhodyaschee v etoj Vselennoj - celesoobrazno, v nej net mesta oshibkam i nelepostyam. A stradanie - vsego lish' etap na puti dukhovnogo razvitiya.

Tak chto, kak govorit nash dorogoj ForeverChild

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Old 11.09.2002, 06:30   #3
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Самое главное - прогресс дал человечеству компьютеры
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Old 11.09.2002, 06:51   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by death:
Самое главное - прогресс дал человечеству компьютеры
Sovershenno verno, kollega !
Ostalos` viyasnit` chto dali kompyuteri cheloveku
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Old 12.09.2002, 06:22   #5
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Chelovek(Chelovechestvo) sam yavlyaetsya produktom progressa i obyektom progressa odnovremenno i eto neizbezhno, po etom ne nado skazat chto dal progrerss cheloveku - a chto dal chelovek progressu, i kak chelovechestvo ispolzuet progress ved progressom polzuyutsya ne tolko lyudi. pri nineshnem sostoyanii progressa kogda mirom pravyat texnologii, kogda nablyudaetsya imenno rost informacii (ne ponimat tolko kompyuteri, a v celom informacii i ix istochnikov )tak chto pri gramotnom podxode eto sulit chelovechestvu ogromnie blaga.

Amenalavaguyn Cankutyunnerov...
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Old 12.09.2002, 16:58   #6
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Dvya dnya ne mog zaxodit` v AKB, che-to nikak ne konnektilos`...

To Helen:

Neponyatno, zachem dlya izpitaniy nuzhen NTP ? Razve bez nego malo bylo ispytaniy ?
Potom, razvitie soznaniya proisxodit s vytesneniem podsoznaniya v bol`shinstve sluchaev (klassicheskaya problema fizikov i lirikov), tak chto ni o kakoy "svad`be" rechi poka net. Poluchaetsya, chto chelovek dolzhen byt` "nemnogo umnim i nemnogo chutkim", ili "ochen` umnim i sovsem ne chutkim", ili "ochen` chutkim, no sovsem ne umnim". Seychas u nas razvivaetsya vtoroy variant.

To hyper:
Chelovek yavlyaetsya produktom natural`nogo progressa, sam chelovek v etom uchastiya ne prinimal, v obshem-to. Tak chto mi ne mozhem skazat` kto mi i zachem nas sozdali. A NTP - eto delo ruk samogo cheloveka, i chelovek dolzhen predstavlyat` zachem on vse eto delaet.
Naschet rosta informacii - vopros sporniy, potomu, chto informaciya vsegda sushestvuet v noosfere a mi tol`ko nauchilis` perekladyvat` na bumagu ili elektronnie nositeli. No eto ne sut` vazhno. Vopros: pri kakom podxode i kakie blaga sulit chelovechestvu NTP ?

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Old 13.09.2002, 01:19   #7
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Wizard, ty u nas takoj mudryj !!!

Kogda ya govorila ob ispytaniyakh rech' shla, konechno, ne kokretno o progresse. Priroda sama polna smerti i stradanij. No NTP kachestvenno izmenil cheloveka. On dal nam vysokorazvituju nauku i iskusstvo, obogatil nash dukhovno-emocional'nyj mir. Nu a pervobytnye lyudi... U nikh bylo tol'ko kollektivnoe soznanie, bez "svoikh" myslej i chuvstv. Nu sravni ikh naskal'nye risunki s muzykoj Bakha.... A Sandro Botichelli? TY DUMAESH" CHTO GOVORISH"??? ( s akcentom Kikabidze)
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Old 13.09.2002, 01:35   #8
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Naschet "mudrosti" - eto podkovirka ? Potomu, chto "W-z-rd" ?

Civilizaciya i NTP - eto ne sinonimi. Mogut byt` visokorazvitie tsivilizacii ne osnovannie na NTP.
Mozhno karandashom narisovat` kartinu kuda slozhnee celogo xud fil`ma. A muzika uzh nikak s NTP ne svyazana, Stradivari svoi skripki ne formulani rasschitival.
Tak chto ya "dumayu, chto govoryu"
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Old 13.09.2002, 04:01   #9
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Da, konechno, ty nash forumovskij Wizard I ikonka pokhozha .

Nu, dorogoj, ezheli by etot NTP ne nachalsya by , lyudi ne stali by sovershenstvovat' svoi orudiya truda.... v tom chisle i kraski i muzykal'nye isntrumenty! Ne ushli by oni dal'she tam-tamov i naskal'nykh risunkov. Khotya i eto neplokho
V obschem, vnutrennij mir pervobytnogo neandertal'ca nado bylo uslozhnit' i obogatit'. Priroda ne terpit pustoty.
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Old 13.09.2002, 05:22   #10
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Originally posted by Helen:
Da, konechno, ty nash forumovskij Wizard I ikonka pokhozha .

Ya ne Wizard, ya eshe tol`ko uchus`


Nu, dorogoj, ezheli by etot NTP ne nachalsya by , lyudi ne stali by sovershenstvovat' svoi orudiya truda.... v tom chisle i kraski i muzykal'nye isntrumenty! Ne ushli by oni dal'she tam-tamov i naskal'nykh risunkov. Khotya i eto neplokho


Tak ya zhe tebe obyasnil, chto tolk`o nalichie instrumentov ne dobavlyaet vozmozhnosti. Nevazhno, chem rusesh - xot` karandashom, kak Esher - vazhno, kto risuet.


V obschem, vnutrennij mir pervobytnogo neandertal'ca nado bylo uslozhnit' i obogatit'. Priroda ne terpit pustoty.


Nu, chto ti znaesh o vnutrennem mire neandertal`ca, kotorogo, mozhet, voobshe i v prirode ne sushestvovalo ?
Mozhet, u koshki tozhe bogatiy duxovniy mir, tol`ko ona virazit` ne mozhet ?
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Old 13.09.2002, 07:27   #11
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Quote:
Tak ya zhe tebe obyasnil, chto tolk`o nalichie instrumentov ne dobavlyaet vozmozhnosti. Nevazhno, chem rusesh - xot` karandashom, kak Esher - vazhno, kto risuet.

Nu, chto ti znaesh o vnutrennem mire neandertal`ca, kotorogo, mozhet, voobshe i v prirode ne sushestvovalo ?
Mozhet, u koshki tozhe bogatiy duxovniy mir, tol`ko ona virazit` ne mozhet ?
Eeee, kematagh.... Kak eto my o nikh nichego ne znaem? A naskal'nye risunki, narisovanye dazhe ne karandashom, a melom?Dlya sozdaniya tvoego lyubimogo karandasha tozhe civilizaciya trebovalas'. A skazki i mify, kotorye byli na vse sluchai zhizni, ob'yasnyali srazu i mirozdanie, i psihologiyu i proch?Znaem, znaem I kstati, uvazhaem tozhe.

I voobsche, Kubrika uvazhaesh'?????? Tak po tvoemu eta obez'yana svoim khodom dobralas' by do yupitera chtoby stat' Starchildom????? Ved' po fil'mu, eto proishodit v samyj pik razvitiya ciivilizacii. Pravda, on potom etot svoj kosmichekij korabl' posylaet kuda podal'she , no enta uzhe potom.
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Old 14.09.2002, 02:43   #12
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Starchild - eto gipoteza. Kakie u nas osnovaniya schitat`, chto Starchild poyavitsya ran`she, chem mi unichtozhim planetu (a k etomu est` vse predposilki). I kakie osnovaniya schitat`, chto Starchild ne poyavitsya esli my budem zhit` v pesherax ? Slozhnost` civilizacii vorastaet i uzhe previshet slozhnost` togo, chto summarniy razum chelovechestva v sostoyanii oobrabotat`, i kompyuteri ne v sostoyanii s etim spravitsya, esli ne budet priduman AI. A perspektiv AI poka nikakix, ne govorya uzh, chto poyavlenie AI budet oznachat` smert` chelovechestva. Nado uluchshat` sposobnosti lyudey, a mi naoborot - sozdaem maksimal`niy komfort dlya nego v fizicheskom i duxovnom mire, chto mozhet zakonchitsya polnoy degradaciey. Nado obyasnyat` - pochemu ?
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