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Old 05.06.2004, 21:38   #16
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I call that the hardships of political mediocrity.
The danger always exists.
By the way I do not consider LTP as a clever politician. I think he was the most stupid in that system. He just spoke publicly not so frequently, so that is why he have been looking like clever. Without his brother he is absolute Zero. They used him quite effectively as a badge.
But better to have political party running the state than amorphous system of politics evened by system of crossed-blackmails.
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Old 05.06.2004, 21:49   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua12
I call that the hardships of political mediocrity.
The danger always exists.
By the way I do not consider LTP as a clever politician. I think he was the most stupid in that system. He just spoke publicly not so frequently, so that is why he have been looking like clever. Without his brother he is absolute Zero. They used him quite effectively as a badge.
But better to have political party running the state than amorphous system of politics evened by system of crossed-blackmails.

Come no! Levon was clever politician. Otherwise he would be bitten at the very beginning.

Do you really think that political leaders are the people who do politics? Any power is matter of compromise. Whoever comes to the political power has to find a compromise with people who real power. The real power is money (Dodi Gago, Lfik, Nemec Rubo, ect). Moreover, the new leadership would have to find a compromise before coming to the power and should pledge its political life as a warranty of loyalty.

I think dashnaks will not get the power unless they find compromise with oligarchs (if they get it at all). Or they will need to make a new revolution. If they get a compromise - they will not be the same Dashnaks anymore.
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Old 05.06.2004, 22:00   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrel
Come no! Levon was clever politician. Otherwise he would be bitten at the very beginning.

Do you really think that political leaders are the people who do politics? Any power is matter of compromise. Whoever comes to the political power has to find a compromise with people who real power. The real power is money (Dodi Gago, Lfik, Nemec Rubo, ect). Moreover, the new leadership would have to find a compromise before coming to the power and should pledge its political life as a warranty of loyalty.

I think dashnaks will not get the power unless they find compromise with oligarchs (if they get it at all). Or they will need to make a new revolution. If they get a compromise - they will not be the same Dashnaks anymore.
I disagree about Levon. He was just a pawn. What is most funny he personaly thinks that he was a wizard.
Certainly they do not make policy, especially in such country like Armenia is.
Armenia is not a closed box where opinion of a local feudal does matter.
Dashnaks will use everything to come to power; because as long as they are members of this coalition they run danger to discredit national idea.
So they will need cabinet reshuffling.
By the way the numbered people are just mortals, never forget that. They will not be able to stand against organized party.
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Old 06.06.2004, 18:23   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua12
I disagree about Levon. He was just a pawn. What is most funny he personaly thinks that he was a wizard.
Certainly they do not make policy, especially in such country like Armenia is.
Armenia is not a closed box where opinion of a local feudal does matter.
Dashnaks will use everything to come to power; because as long as they are members of this coalition they run danger to discredit national idea.
So they will need cabinet reshuffling.
By the way the numbered people are just mortals, never forget that. They will not be able to stand against organized party.
You are too optimistic about Dashnaks. Go Ashtarak and see what dashnak-marzpet is doing there, just the same think HHSh did - selling out state property. Power is just about money. It does not matter who holds the power, if you do not have strong civil society controlling authorities you would have always same problems with abuse of the power.
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Old 06.06.2004, 18:46   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrel
You are too optimistic about Dashnaks. Go Ashtarak and see what dashnak-marzpet is doing there, just the same think HHSh did - selling out state property. Power is just about money. It does not matter who holds the power, if you do not have strong civil society controlling authorities you would have always same problems with abuse of the power.
I agree, but in the coming 10 yeas the society will not be able to control the power in this country.
I consider situation from the pragmatic point of view.
Armenia has what it has: badly educated and badly trained population, widespread corruption, lack of democracy, bad management, misunderstanding of world processes, condition of war with the neighboring country, low intellectual level of the people incorporated into State Service as well as Military Service. In this situation pragmatism is apt to place. Though I have to agree it is not the best choice, but can you site an alternative?
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Old 06.06.2004, 19:03   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua12
I agree, but in the coming 10 yeas the society will not be able to control the power in this country.
It will. Just compare 1993 and 2004 - the difference is significant. Politicians spend money for bribing press, which means they afraid of it. In some cases (though, not many) civil society groups won cases against authorities. The things are improving, but very slow - too slow to build normal society.

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Armenia has what it has: badly educated and badly trained population,
relatively bad

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widespread corruption, lack of democracy, bad management, misunderstanding of world processes, condition of war with the neighboring country,
I agree. But it does not mean that will be never changed.

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low intellectual level of the people incorporated into State Service as well as Military Service.
Well, I would say politicians. There are many clever civil servants now. Mid level of civil servants is not too bad. Political positions are different - they are usually appointed by political parties and most of that people are not professionals, but mid and low level officials are ok now.


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In this situation pragmatism is apt to place. Though I have to agree it is not the best choice, but can you site an alternative?
Yes, we can. Not to concentrate on choosing the best people (what is Levon Mktchya would gone?), but on changing the system. Building real mechanisms of civil society control over the authorities. Making press free, making public authorities responcible.
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Old 09.06.2004, 09:33   #22
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I agree the progress is evident. But the situation is not stable. There is always a danger that all the achievements may disappear. There are static parameters of the state and the dynamic ones. Our dynamic parameters improve, the static have no tendency of improvement. Just disorder turned into some kind of order and that is all. People live they have to live so they improve life around them. I mean the observable grass grows due to rains not due to irrigation. That is why some changes are evident. Armenian people can quite well survive without presence of the Government a historically proven fact. But there are no systematic changes on the level of state and at presence of continuous external pressure the system will not be able effectively defend itself for long period of time. Remember the enemy grows in Mordor and one day it will unleash its power upon Armenia.
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Old 09.06.2004, 20:01   #23
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Vahan Hovhannisyan declared that the commission will fight against corruption intensively and in September new evidences will be brought on.
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Old 09.06.2004, 21:44   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua12
Vahan Hovhannisyan declared that the commission will fight against corruption intensively and in September new evidences will be brought on.
I wish he could.

The problem is not a particular person or a particular party. The system itself is a problem. Vahan is a very clever person and I respect him very much. He is my favorable political leader, BUT I do see their (Dashnaks) willingness to change the system. Corruption happen not because people are bad, it's happen because the system is designed in a way encouraging corruption. Traffic police takes bribe not because people who work there are dishonest, no they do that because drivers pay them. And why drivers do that, because the system is designed in a specific manner which makes peoples life difficult, because otherwise drivers will have to go through a long and unpleasant procedures.

System is a problem - the laws, architect of power, traditions of soviet government (a few things were changed since the collapse of soviet). Methods are the same. Dashnaks have been unfairly imprisoned in 1996. Now they tolerate unfair imprisonment of their opposition. Could they change the rule if they accept them?
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Old 10.06.2004, 07:25   #25
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Certainly the system is one of the problems. But in my opinion the main problem is not the system. The main problem is in absence of the Jurisprudence. When someone commits crime he/she must be imprisoned, judged, and jailed for period assigned. The law must function. The problem is that the law does not function. You can invent the best system but it will never function if the law is not applied fully, without manipulations, and independently! There is no political will for that.
The nation must be forced to follow the law.
Vahan is interesting person but he has some elements of primitivism but that is due to the terrible life he had. But that is a person one can work with without damage to once honor. At least I hope so.
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Old 10.06.2004, 18:55   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua12
The main problem is in absence of the Jurisprudence.
Well, there is no justice (correct word is justice - юстиция, правосудие. jurisprudence means юриспруденция, от слов jure – прaво, закон и prudent - знаток, знающий) because the system is built in a way not to support the justice. It is similar to traffic policy. Why judge makes wrong decision - because a) he is not sufficiently paid, b) there is no fair control over his judgment (neither from the side of civil society nor from the side of other branches of power), c) he depends on the head of the state (president) and government (minister of justice).

Quote:
The law must function. The problem is that the law does not function. You can invent the best system but it will never function if the law is not applied fully, without manipulations, and independently!
Meanwhile you are right - the system will not help if people do not want to use it. Computer is usefulness if nobody wants it to work. But a particular good law will never work is other laws are bad and ridiculous. One law is just o microchip, even if you have a perfect chip it will not work in a bad system. Entire architect of the computer defines its productivity. Entire legal system defines productivity of the state. And of course the most important element is the basis of the legal system - the Constitution. We have a Constitution which was designed to support the power of one person.

Therefore, we need good system and we need people who want to use that system in a fair way, because otherwise they will be punished by the system (not necessary right at the moment they violated the law, but sometimes after that). Why republicans are sure they will never be punished, because HHSh was not. And we come to the third conditions of a normal state – the mentality. The mentality of the population should be change. Crime should be a crime and should not be tolerated.

Hm, it seems we have not just one, but a set of very complicate problems
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Old 10.06.2004, 19:56   #27
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Thw problem is that the law in Armenia will not function if the mentality of people does not change. By now the police and the courts are understood as the tool of the "bad guy". If you want the laws to work (without introducing dictatorship) you have to make people respect the law and the agencies who are working for the cause of law. as far as the mentality of "ho es gorc twogh chem" works, no hopes of civilized society can exist.
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Old 10.06.2004, 22:05   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrel
jurisprudence means юриспруденция, от слов jure – прaво, закон и prudent - знаток, знающий
Darrel,
I will write back in detail later. But I was meaning exactly what I wrote. It is not misprinting or wrong comprehension of words. I was pointing out exactly at absence of the Jurisprudence=The philosophy or science of law! That is very important!
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Old 11.06.2004, 13:20   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua12
Darrel,
I will write back in detail later. But I was meaning exactly what I wrote. It is not misprinting or wrong comprehension of words. I was pointing out exactly at absence of the Jurisprudence=The philosophy or science of law! That is very important!
Joshua12 do not be offended please, I just though that law enforcement, which you refer to is matter of justice, but I guess you have some ideas to tell. You provided very american interpretation of the word jurisprudence which is ok, many people who studied in US or in AUA use american terminology. I would say that jurisprudence as a science and as a theoretical guidelines for law-making is neither developed nor respected in Armenia. Armenian (as well as other NIS countries) is lacking something which could be defined as a legal culture. However, I am not agree with your statement about the absence of jurisprudence. There are some very good law professors who have worked out pretty good theories and legal schemes. But, they are a small group of academics and they do not really influence public policy. Unfortunately real politics is based on interests of politicians and business elite and law are not always adopted in accordance with the modern legal theories.

Did you mean that or general legal culture and consciousness?
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Old 12.06.2004, 10:47   #30
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To implement the law there must be a will.

The will of the governor,
The will of the lords,
The will of the people.

The governor cannot implement his will as the lords have power over him, the lords are not interested in that implementation as their accumulated wealth is acquired by injustice. The people are not organized and structured well. The nation historically was adapted to live under oppression of enemy. Thus the people adapt to live under this government, as under the Turkish one, for them there is no difference. When they violate law they violate it due to this circumstance too.
You were writing about political elite, I am writing about lords. Each nation clinging to prosper has to have educated lords. Otherwise other forces will correlate the events creating elite congruent with their Data Base. So Armenia will never be independent, will never have independent foreign policy, will never be able to strive to assert its will among the free nations.
For establishment of the realm of the law the traditional schemes working for other nations will not be able to work here. That is proven historical fact. Armenian people need some other kind of law. The law they will agree to follow to. If they not agree there will not be any law in this land in the centuries to come.
There is no time for the evolutionary evolvement of solid self-sufficient state structure. It may appear so that this nation cannot come to justice and develop Philosophy of Law by its own.
This nation needs independent source of knowledge which will correlate the development of this nation and which will serve as the Lord of this nation. Otherwise persons of dignity and honor have nothing to do in this nation, more over they will never even attempt to sacrifice their time and ability for backing up the state and all national institutions.

The matter is who will create that pure source the center of nucleation of ideas, people and intellectual power? Maybe Dashnaks will venture to do so. Historically this party has a potential to understand the value and the power of the Source.
Beside if the source be created then even the wizards may choose to gather near that source if it be pure enough for them.
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