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Old 30.05.2003, 00:06   #196
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tumanyan
Harut, dzer tuyltvutyamb mi andznakan harts ktsankanai tal. Kare li e?

Isk vor xmbin ek tvatsnerits patkanum duk?

Andzamb es hamarum em, vor ardar che mardkants bajanel xmberi mi kani tarrakan tsutsanishneri himan vra. Batsi ayd, kuzenai nshel, vor kirt andznavorutyun@ iren tuyl chi ta voreve mekin anvanel sutasan miayn tesaketneri tarberutyan patcharov.

Lavaguyn maxtanknerov,
Tumanyan, yes chem portsum mardkants bazhanel xmberi. parzapes tsankanum em asel, vor gnal-mnal@ kap uni te mard kyanqum inch [email protected] uni yev, vor tsankatsats v&ir normal e ayd [email protected]@ pahpanelu hamar, yev talis em mi qani orinak.

krtutyan mahar asem, vor @ndunum em, vor yes (migutse der) krtvats chem. yev zhamanak-ar-zhamanak asum em tsenzurayits durs banner. (chnayats ays depqum aveli karevorer logikan qants te krtutyun@).
hamenayn deps im kartsiq@ chem poxum. kartsum em vor na parzapes stum e. migutse akama? chgitem.

isk inch verabervum e im vor "xmbin" patkanelun, apa asem, vor yes poqer em yeghel, vorpeszi im [email protected]@ hashvi arnvein.
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Old 30.05.2003, 19:35   #197
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Harut jan, karch kasem. chem stum. havata.
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Old 31.05.2003, 01:19   #198
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Originally posted by DaNYer
Harut jan, karch kasem. chem stum. havata.
chgitem. bayts yete yes mekin, mi azgi, inchvor mi ban aydqan atei` aydqan zhamanak chei antskatsni nrants het.
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Old 16.06.2003, 07:51   #199
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Default Ob chem rech.`

Hey, guys,

Are you losers or something? This is loser mentality- it doesn't work for me, then I give up and go to somwhere else to lose there too.

Nel`zia byt` takim slabym v zhizni. Y vas ne polychaetsia, vas obideli, nakhamili, ne obslyzhili, chyt` ne naexali. Vsio y vas ploxo zdes`, i poetomy- nado yexat`. Tam, esli est` den`gi- budet otlichnyi service.
... No bydyt li y vas den`gi tam s takim vashim podxodom k zhizni? Esli oni yzhe est`, to vam i zdes` dolzhno byt` neploxo.

V liybom slychae, vy tam nikogda ne stanete svoim, i deti bydyt stradat`- razryvat`sia mezhdy "Armianskoj" semiei i okryzhaiyschei sredoi. V konce koncov oni vyberyt okryzhaiyschiy sredy i eto bydet dopolnitel`noj tragediei. Vy opiat` proigrete, no chtoby ne priznavat`sia bydete pisat` bodrye pis`ma znakomym i dryziam siyda.

Vsia vasha zhizn` bydet poteriana, prichem vy poteriaete ee 2 raza! Face this!
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Old 16.06.2003, 17:14   #200
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Default Re: Ob chem rech.`

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin
Hey, guys,

Are you losers or something? This is loser mentality- it doesn't work for me, then I give up and go to somwhere else to lose there too.
Just a short comment on this.
Do you think, that you're the most successful and wise guy around, huh? If not, please, try to avoid such an offensive (smart us) posts. Believe me, people won't consider your openion if they're are offended by your tone.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin

Nel`zia byt` takim slabym v zhizni. Y vas ne polychaetsia, vas obideli, nakhamili, ne obslyzhili, chyt` ne naexali. Vsio y vas ploxo zdes`, i poetomy- nado yexat`. Tam, esli est` den`gi- budet otlichnyi service.
... No bydyt li y vas den`gi tam s takim vashim podxodom k zhizni? Esli oni yzhe est`, to vam i zdes` dolzhno byt` neploxo.
Money is not the only reason, why people leave their contries and look for fortune aboard. Believe it or not, there are lots of other factors affecting someones decision to leave. Those are, for example, career, professional growth, intention to try something new.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin

V liybom slychae, vy tam nikogda ne stanete svoim, i deti bydyt stradat`- razryvat`sia mezhdy "Armianskoj" semiei i okryzhaiyschei sredoi. V konce koncov oni vyberyt okryzhaiyschiy sredy i eto bydet dopolnitel`noj tragediei. Vy opiat` proigrete, no chtoby ne priznavat`sia bydete pisat` bodrye pis`ma znakomym i dryziam siyda.
You're right, there always will be a difference between those, who was born here and newcomers. But, the bottom line is, that this is an emmigrant country, society is much more tolerant to foreighners here than in Armenia. And, also, did you ever think, that some people might eventually feel like foreighners in Armenia? A lots of them don't like the way the things are happening in Yerevan and that is yet another reason for them to leave.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin

Vsia vasha zhizn` bydet poteriana, prichem vy poteriaete ee 2 raza! Face this!
I have an impression from your post, that you never been here. At least did not leave for more or less long period of time.v Therefore, it's really funny to see a guy, who pretends to be more knowledgable about life in other country, than others, who live there.
Just as a friendly advise: please, read your message twice before posting. Ask yourself, what makes you feel like you know more, than other people.

Take care,
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Last edited by Tumanyan; 16.06.2003 at 20:23.
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Old 16.06.2003, 17:30   #201
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Ронин - я знакома со многими иммигрантскими семьями здесь. ПОверь мне, выбор остаться за рубежом для них был не так трагичен , как ты описываешь.
У многих здесь вырастают дети, которые привыкают к чужим обычаям и менталитету. это не повод убиваться и с/ходит с ума, тaк как нету самого правильного менталитета!
Ни армянский менталитет, ни америкнский нельзя назвать единственно правильным, он правильный только в данно контексте и данном обществе.
А общечеловеческие, моральные принципы ты сам можешь привить ребенку.


Земля у всех людей одна, так что, живите, где вам нравится...

Don`t argue, take it easy.
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Old 17.06.2003, 12:07   #202
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Default Hovhannes, Helen- Your assumptions/perceptions are wrong

Dear Hovhannes and Helen,

First, I should say, that, your assumptions about me either not having lived here or there are wrong. I lived both in the US and then I returned home. This is where I am writing this my message from now.

By no means, Hovhannes, I pretend that money is everything. SHould you have read my relevant line carefully, you have seen, I was listing various emotions, which can push one to leave- feeling offended, overlooked, lonely, etc.. Yet, why you think leaving the country may work?

From your answer, (you say my reasoning can offend many) is- this is what many did, and that`s how this immigrant country- the United States, got formed.

So what???

It doesn't mean, that all these people were right. Many of them were criminals- who killed aindigenous people. Some had to leave their home countries as a result of oppressions, under risk of loosing their lives (like early Armenian diaspora). Intolerancy, racial hatred (or, as one of my American professor called it- "Balkanization", meaning racial and cultural polarization) still prevail in that country.

Now, about career. Go and work, study there (that's what I did). Why do you want to stay there? Professional growth? Let's not mix means and ends and face it. You can't ignore your family and afford spending 10 hours at work and another 3 hours driving to and from job (practically, entire your day) only to realize during the weekends that your kids are becoming more and more alienated from you. As Eric Bogossian puts it (in case you've seen this part of his one man show) "What about me???"

In the beginning you will be out to work in order to survive, then if you succeed, you start building "career" and again your family doesn't see you. Why do you want it to happen? To become a "successful professional" without routs, without family, friends, with your kids, being brought up by baby sitter, soap operas and local school gangs?

I mean, it get tough here at times, but not to this extend (at least after weighing pros and cons I choose living here).

Isk hima hiekakan irakanoutian masin. Aio, ed "vat" tgherk@ amen inch takov en arel, bolorin kasharel en, tget en, kopit en, shan tgherk en mi khoskov. Baic, mi rope, ed vonc eghav, es el, irenk el, nouin kaghaki tgherk enk, nouin bakeroum (kam asenk Gharabaghoum- karevor chi) metsacel. Hl@ es el irencic shat ban gitem, aveli shat ban em tesel. Ed vonc eghav, vor hima ed tgherki pat&arov es petk e toghnem heranam? Indzanic ouzhegh en, khelok? Chem karcoum.

Turkeri masin el chem asoum. Mi dar aradj pordzecin kheghtel- kisakhekht, erakhneric azatvecink. Hima voroshel en gorts@ verdjacnel. Es el havatam vor irok karogh en ev toghnem gnam- ourishnerin (im steghcacov, erekhekovs) patar darnam?

This is what I call loser.

You may ask, what to do? Iharke, es koch chem anoum, Turkeri het "barishel" (da nouinn e, ete zoh@ hankarc vorosher barishel vo&ragortsi het), kam darnal ed taghi tgherki nman. Baic ete mek@ khelk ouni, aveli shat ban giti, shrdjahaiac e, "Career-i" herankarner ouni, na aveli mets hnaravoroutiounneri ter karogh e gtnvel, kan ed pogh ounecogh, aranc skzbounkneri tgetneri taifen, kam inknahavan Turker@. Parzapes khohemoutioun e petk ev lavatesoutioun, ev ser. ..Henc ed nouin tgherki nkatmamb, vor irenc kiankoum ourish ban chgiten. Baic, deh hamozvac em, irenk el en lav@ kamenoum irenc erekhekin. Isk aranc kez pes, Hovhannes ev Helen, krtvac, banimacneri, irenc apagan el e datapartvac.
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Old 17.06.2003, 12:57   #203
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Default Ty znaesh` otvet.

Quote:
Originally posted by Helen
Ронин - я знакома со многими иммигрантскими семьями здесь. ПОверь мне, выбор остаться за рубежом для них был не так трагичен , как ты описываешь.
У многих здесь вырастают дети, которые привыкают к чужим обычаям и менталитету. это не повод убиваться и с/ходит с ума, тaк как нету самого правильного менталитета!
Ни армянский менталитет, ни америкнский нельзя назвать единственно правильным, он правильный только в данно контексте и данном обществе.
А общечеловеческие, моральные принципы ты сам можешь привить ребенку.


Земля у всех людей одна, так что, живите, где вам нравится...

Don`t argue, take it easy.
Helen, odin vopros. Zachem togda ty, Helen, ychastvyesh` v etom Armianskom chat-e? Po-moemy, eto oznachaet, chto:
1. Est` obschnost` vo vzgiadax, podxodax s drygimi ego ychastnikami;
2. Est` potrebnost` v obschenii s etimi ychastnikami.

Po-moemy, potomy chto vnimanie, reakcii i otnoshenie, skazhem amerikanskix sobesednikov k odnim i tem zhe temam dlia tebia ne stol` cenimy (sirech` "nepravil`ny") kak vnimanie i ponimanie sorodichej- armian.
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Old 17.06.2003, 14:18   #204
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Ронин - честно говоря, не поняла, к чему был твой вопрос.
Разве из моего ответа следовало, что я начихала на своих соотечественников и на Армению в целом???? Вот теперь тебе просьба - перечитть мой ответ повнимательней .

Да, мне гораздо приятней общаться с моими соотечественниками и жителями из бывшего Союза. Есть душевное родство и взаимопонимание. И дело не в том, чтоя считаю когото правильным или нет.

Из Армении ни я, ни моя семья не убегали, тем более от этих обнаглевших разжиревших ребят. Не те мы люди, чтоб от кого-то убегать.
У меня двое детей, и, честно говоря, не думаю, что здесь им будет прямо-таки хуже, чем в ЕРеване. Здесь их прекрасно можно вырастить и воспитать.( знаю много примеров).Как и впрочем в Армении. Главное - желание и старание, где бы то ни было. Ты опят все несколько утрировал.: "...being brought up by baby sitter, soap operas and local school gangs?..." А то в Армении они прямо таки сразу попадут в компашку с отменными вкусами, словарным запасом, и в школу, в которой готовя эйнштейнов????


Спорить мне особо не хочется. Давайте просто никого не судить - Не судите, да не судиму будете .
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Old 18.06.2003, 06:07   #205
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Default Poiasniy.

Dorogaya Helen,

Ya by ne prodolzhal (xotia eto discussion forum), no, poskol`ky ty ne poniala moego voprosa, poprobyiy poyasnit`:

1. Ty sama govorish`, ctho syschestvyiyt raznye mentalitety- armianskij, amerikanskij (ya by prodolzhil- evropeiskij, rysskij, mysyl`manskij, kitajskij i t.d.)
2. Plox on ili xorosh- no y nas on odin- Armiaskij.

Tak vot, isxodia iz etogo prostoi vybor- xotela by ty, chtoby tvoi deti imeli amerikanskij mentalitet, ili armianskij?

Armianskoe samosoznanie bydet postoyanno trevozhit` ix v amerikanskoj srede- oni ne bydyt "svoimi". Skoree vsego oni (esli ne oni, to ix vnyki) bydyt imet` amerikanskij obraz myslei (ya ne govoriy, chto eto xorosho ili ploxo)- tak prosto bydet spokoinei dlia nix. Eto bydet ne vash i dazhe ne ix vybor. Eto bydet rezyl`tat vospitaniya baby sitter-a, soap operas, peer pressure and later, corporate infulense (na rabote).

Prosto oni bydyt po inomy myslit` i podxodit` k vescham chem my. Konechno zhe, est` obrazcy Armianskix semei, kotorye pronesli armianskost` cherez pokoleniya. No kakoi cenoi? Inogda cenoi marginalizacii. Y menia dryg v Amerike, kotoryi vinyzhden byl ostavit` slyzhby v armii, potomy chto otkrovenno vyskazalsia po odnomy voprosy (po kotoromy on kak armianin ne mog vyskazat`sia inache). Priznaemsia, my vsio zhe ne dostigli v Amerike togo yrovnia vlijanija i l`got, kotorye imeet Evreiskaya diaspora.

Ya, konechno, nadeiys`, ctho s vashimi det`mi vsio bydet xorosho i oni bydyt schastlivy. No dlia etogo prosto nyzhno znat` chego konkretno ty xochesh` dlia nix (ostavim v storony material`noe blagopolychie i kariery).
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Old 18.06.2003, 14:22   #206
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Dear Ronin - Я достаточно близко знаю несколько семей, которые намереваются остаться в Штатах и вырастить детей здес, и могу с уверенностю сказать, глядя на их пример, что все дело в том, сколько внимания уделяешь детям!То же самое предстоит и в Армении.
МНе нужно чтоб они росли умными, разносторонними личностями.Остальное приложится.

А что касается менталитета - то и в Армении он за последние годы сильно изменился, и вообще, меняется с каждым поколением! В ЕРеване я уже три года не была, но насколько я знаю, нравы стали гораздо свободнее. Да и сама видела, как девчонки - подростки прямо на проспекте Месропа Маштоца показывали друг другу средний палец.Прямо посреди бела дня. Свобода, понимаете ли...
Здесь же, в Штатах, народ уже достаточно перебесился и от свободы отношений даже успел устать. ПО крайней мере, так обстоят дела в нашем Штате. Люди в основном порядочные.

Проблемы, в общем, везде свои...А что касается разницы менталитетов - то не стоит цепляться всю жизнь за один менталитет. Нужно пытаться понят других, и брать у них хорошее, а не быть жесткой, замкнутой системой. Говорили же китайцы - мягкое и гибкое выживает, жесткое и твердое погибает.
И вообще, не могу с уверенностью сказать, что у меня армянский менталитет. Менталитет у меня во многом азиатский, но я так же вобрала в себя много европейского. Двусторонний такой менталитет .
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Old 18.06.2003, 21:31   #207
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To Tumanian,Ronin and others

I am studying Outside Armenia ,and i want to continue my education outside,and start my career and continue outside..You'll possibly ask why.
The point is that there are no prospects in Armenia for somebody who is just going to finish the school.I could go to politeh (the only way i Armenia if you dont want to be lawer or buisnessman,and not to be starving),but what then???There is nowhere to start.This is not 1995 when you colud start by teaching computer literacy.This is not 1999 to go to developmnet company which where just opening.this is 2003 when the employment market is full. Companies now need people with some expirience.....the univercity diploma is not enough.

But what if i dont want to go to programming or computer science??the ways are still open,but there is no light in the end.....

Thease are the reasns why young peole want to get out of here
on line with other factors like the total "rabizutjun" of peple which is realy awful.

Best Regards
analyst
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Old 18.06.2003, 21:44   #208
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+other problems

- nichego nelzja sdelat bez mzdi komuto.
- vopros armii
- otsustvie servisa

Best regards.
analyst
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Old 18.06.2003, 21:47   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by analyst
To Tumanian,Ronin and others

I am studying Outside Armenia ,and i want to continue my education outside,and start my career and continue outside..You'll possibly ask why.
The point is that there are no prospects in Armenia for somebody who is just going to finish the school.I could go to politeh (the only way i Armenia if you dont want to be lawer or buisnessman,and not to be starving),but what then???There is nowhere to start.This is not 1995 when you colud start by teaching computer literacy.This is not 1999 to go to developmnet company which where just opening.this is 2003 when the employment market is full. Companies now need people with some expirience.....the univercity diploma is not enough.

But what if i dont want to go to programming or computer science??the ways are still open,but there is no light in the end.....

Thease are the reasns why young peole want to get out of here
on line with other factors like the total "rabizutjun" of peple which is realy awful.

Best Regards
analyst
Short and VERY descriptive answer. It reflects my point of view.
I don't know, if Ronin needs more agruments to make him believe, that there are real resons to leave the country, that people, who leaves the country, they love, are not loosers.
I dought, that there is anything, that can change his mind. But, at least, we tried.

Take care,
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Old 19.06.2003, 18:40   #210
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Default Re: Poiasniy.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin
Dorogaya Helen,


1. Ty sama govorish`, ctho syschestvyiyt raznye mentalitety- armianskij, amerikanskij (ya by prodolzhil- evropeiskij, rysskij, mysyl`manskij, kitajskij i t.d.)
2. Plox on ili xorosh- no y nas on odin- Armiaskij.

Tak vot, isxodia iz etogo prostoi vybor- xotela by ty, chtoby tvoi deti imeli amerikanskij mentalitet, ili armianskij?

Interesnaya discussiya , izvinite chto vmeshivayus , tak kak vopros bil adresovan ne mne . Xotelos bi utochnit chto imenno podrazumevaetsya pod "armyanskim mentalitetom".
Ronin , mojet ya ne prava no mne kajetsya v vas ochen mnogo nacianalizna, v xoroshem slisle etogo slova, mojet nujno otnositsya k drugim kulturam bolee otkrito, ne zamikatsya v svoem "armyanstve".
I ne dumayu chto vse tak ploxo kak vi predstavlyaete , v chastnosti na vashem primere s detmi. Ya ne "razrivayus" mejdu moey armyanskoi sem'ey i okrujayushey amerikanskoi sredoi. V kajdoi iz nix u menya est svoi interesi i s kajdoi iz nix menya svyazivaet chto to vajnoe i nujnoe.Ved chelovek ne mojet postoyanno jit v kakom to odnom opredelennom vacuume, vrashatsya tolko v odnoi srede, esli on vsestoronne razvit i otkrit k vospriyatiyu chego to novogo , to emu budet interesno i komfortno sredi raznix kultur i obshest.
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