And again Ms. Sachs... - Page 4

Vega$ · Dec 16, 2004, 10:02

взято отсюда

For Armenia, deepening isolation and little hope
By Susan Sachs The New York Times
Wednesday, December 15, 2004

Landlocked and stuck in a cold war with two of its four neighbors, Armenia has rarely seemed so alone as in the past few months.

Citing terrorism concerns, Russia abruptly sealed its border with Georgia in September and kept it closed for nearly two months, effectively cutting off the road that was the main transit route for Armenian trade with Russia.

At the same time, Armenians had to watch from the sidelines as Azerbaijan and Georgia celebrated the completion of a large section of the pipeline to carry Caspian Sea oil to the Turkish port of Ceyhan. The $3 billion regional energy project bypasses Armenia entirely.

Another bitter pill came in October, when the European Union's executive commission recommended that Turkey start negotiations for full membership without first having to end its rail and land blockade of Armenia.

For many people in this impoverished country, the events added up to a scary reminder of their deepening isolation.

"If nothing changes, Armenia will be left as an island," said Levon Barseghyan, a political activist in Gyumri, a rundown town on the railroad line that was closed by Turkey in 1992. "Everyone will forget about Armenia."

As winter closes in, bringing the risk of new hardships in a country heavily dependent on imports and foreign aid, the prospects for change appear slim without outside intervention.

Armenia's long-running conflict with Azerbaijan, its oil-producing neighbor to the east, remains one of the more intractable problems left from the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Both countries claim Nagorno-Karabakh, a slice of land that is geographically inside the borders of Azerbaijan but is controlled by ethnic Armenian separatists. Their six-year war over Karabakh ended with a ceasefire in 1994, after 35,000 people were killed and an estimated one million people, most of them Azeri, became refugees.

Turkey, Armenia's big neighbor to the west, has backed its Turkic ally, Azerbaijan, and closed its land border with Armenia. Turkish leaders have said they would not reopen the border until Armenia takes steps to withdraw its troops from in and around Karabakh. Meanwhile, peace negotiations have stalled despite mediation efforts by Russia, France and the United States.

"On neither side is there a public mood that is conducive to compromise," said a western diplomat in Yerevan, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The stalemate has left Armenia boxed in from the east and the west, excluded from the giant Caspian Sea energy pipeline that should provide hefty transit fees for the other countries it passes through.

Turkish and Russian goods make their way to Armenia - Turkey is its seventh largest trading partner - but with the added cost of road transit through third countries like Georgia or by the planes that operate flights between Yerevan and Istanbul.

Georgia's roads, however, have sometimes been closed because of political instability or, as was the case this fall, because of action by Russia. Armenia's only other direct outlet is through Iran to the south, where trade has been hampered by a poor road network and lack of rail lines.

Given the impact of their unresolved conflict with Azerbaijan, Armenian officials have been eager to revive peace talks. But they have also have refused to make unilateral concessions on Karabakh, which they refer to as liberated Armenian territory, in exchange for Turkey's reopening of rail and road traffic.

"We won't trade off Karabakh for a railroad," said the foreign minister, Vardan Oskanyan, adding that Armenians have learned to cope with their isolation. "Things are evolving around us. Let it be."

Many Armenians, foreign donors and economists are not nearly as sanguine. While the economy has recovered from the near-total blockade on Armenia in the early 1990s, the gross domestic output is no higher than it was in 1988, before a devastating earthquake. A reopening of the eastern and western borders, according to international studies, would quickly boost its growth rate by as much as 50 percent.

Meanwhile, despite infusions of cash from Armenians living abroad that account for more than 20 percent of the country's income, nearly half of the country's 3 million people live in poverty on less than $2 a day. The limited opportunities have contributed to an exodus of working-age Armenians since independence 13 years ago, with some estimates putting the population loss at nearly 30 percent.

Such dire circumstances might be expected to provoke political unrest. But they have not noticeably weakened President Robert Kocharian, a Karabakh native and former commander of the separatist forces who was reelected to a second term last year.

"Every day the government tells us our economy can flourish without opening the Turkish border and without solving the Karabakh problem," said Aram Abrahamyan, editor of the Aravot daily newspaper. "And the government propaganda succeeds with the common people."

A very different scenario was predicted by a private research group called Armenia 2020, which has commissioned studies of the country's future based on a range of possible developments.

One prediction was based on the status quo continuing for another 10 years. It concluded that "if there are no changes, there is no prosperity," said Arashes Kazakhetsyan, the director of the group.

The Armenian government has focused much of its efforts on a two-pronged approach to Turkey. It has appealed directly to Turkish leaders to normalize relations. At the same time, it has tried to increase diplomatic pressure on Turkey, openly questioning Turkey's fitness to start European Union entry talks before it addresses Armenian grievances.

In an interview, Oskanyan said he did not understand why European leaders ignored what he called Turkey's "faults and shortcomings" with regard to Armenia. "What is regrettable," he said, "is that Europe is closing its eyes on Turkey's petulance."

Oskanyan stopped short of saying Turkey's bid should be rejected, although Armenian lobbying groups have been making that argument in Brussels. While Turkey has changed many of its policies over the last two years to win European Union acceptance, there has been no indication of a shift in its official line toward Armenia.

Private contacts between Turks and Armenians will continue to be encouraged, said a senior Turkish diplomat in Ankara. But the diplomat said the political impasse must be broken by Armenia. "We can't change our policy on the Azeris," he said. "So the first move has to come from Armenia. We would like to see an opening, even a small opening, on Nagorno-Karabakh."

-----
ba... aj tenc baner

PsilocybeLarvae · Dec 17, 2004, 15:52

Copyright © 2004 Montreal Gazette

Re: Gazette, Dec. 13, "Armenians discover independence stifling." My family and I were deeply saddened by the negative way my family's ancestral land was depicted. Although the economy is weak in Armenia, the country is striving toward democracy and is implementing constitutional and judicial reforms meeting democratic standards.

Yes, 70 years of Soviet rule, the 1988 earthquake and the war with Azerbaijan in the 1990s have devastated Armenia's economy. But slowly and surely, Armenia is implementing a free-market economy. There's hope on the horizon. Let's give Armenia a chance .

Alex Darian

Montreal

RAMZES · Dec 17, 2004, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agregat

По - хрену, что знают читатели. Пока я тут - чтоб при мне обсуждений не было.

Да братишка, круто ты попал на TV

Agregat · Dec 17, 2004, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

Агрегат, не смеши мои тапочки.

1. Сам, лично, добровольно, дал свои данные Журналистке (не шахтёрше или там космонавтке, а именно ЖУР-НА-ЛИСТ-КЕ).

2. Эти данные потом печатались многомиллионным тиражом и обошли весь мир, став публичной информацией.

3. Когда я рекомендовал тебе отправить свой протест газете, ты сказал, что тебе все по фиг.

А щась уже почему-то не по фиг? С какой стати?

Неужели ты ожидаешь, что кто-нибудь отнесётся к твоим требованиям всерьёз после этого? Помилуй сынок, ты смешон.

Ладно, Луцифер я не буду смешить твои тапочки.

Но тогда уж, господин Зурабян Нерсес – защитник и человек так любящий Армению, верящий в нее и знающий, что здесь так хорошо, расскажи форуму, как оказалось так, что

1. в июне 2000 года ты уехал в США по трудовой визе (не знаю как ты в начале, но большинство других людей, кто уехал так же работали уборщиками, официантами и т.д.). И ты до сих пор там живешь в городе Бозтон, штат Массачюсетс, США, а не в Ереване, Республика Армения. Не знаю конкретно твой статус сейчас, но долгое время ты жил вне закона. Скрывался так сказать, лишь бы остаться там, скажи мне, любитель страны, как так вышло?

2. Или как оказалось так, что ты получал по американским меркам мизерную зарплату, не то что мои 650$ здесь, которые тебе так нравится обсуждать, ведь здесь у тебя могла бы бытрь чудесная зарплата? Как оказалось так, что ты до сих пор там живешь … а? Может мы что – то не понимаем?

3. Как оказалось так, что некоторое время назад, извини не помню точных дат, вся твоя семья переехала жить к тебе и оказалось так, что у твоего брата не выйдет счастливого будущего в чудесной стране Республика Армения?

4. И, наконец, Нерсес, быть может все же для тебя Республика Армения оказалась “Land without future” или как там точнее сформулировала Сюзан Сакс?

Мы ждем твоих пространных и точных ответом. Или же, может быть ты закончишь мелеть языком и утверждать что здесь все хорошо (кстати, я не утверждаю обратного), а вернешься назад, отдашь долг родине (служба в армии), потом будешь работать здесь, а?

Скажи нам, Зурабян Нерсес, где твой Land with future?

Что ж, я тоже понимаю, что на расстоянии любить родину куда проще, чем любить ее живя в ней...

Н.К.Рерих · Dec 17, 2004, 21:16

Agregat>>

Lucifer · Dec 17, 2004, 23:40

Агрегат, сынок, ты заметно нервничаешь и злишься (хотя в том, что ты находишься в глупой ситуации винить можешь только самого себя). От этого ты становишься все более смешным и мелочным.

От мандража ты даже приписал моей скромной биографии несколько ложных элементов (хотя реальное положение, уверен, тебе прекрасно известно). Новый гордый ученик Сакс?

В глубине души понимая, что ты находишься в положении нагадившего на ковёр кота, тем не менее пытаешься перевернуть с больной головы на здоровую- попрекаешь меня Арменией, хотя в моих предыдущих постингах про свою любовь к Родине не было и речи. Неужели ты полагал, что таким мелкопакостным поступком сможешь вызвать у меня что-либо кроме улыбки жалости к тебе?

Опускаться до того, что-бы отвечать на мелкопакастные выпады я не буду. Если кому интересно, можете открыть новый топик, где живущие в Армении и за её пределами расскажут о своём отношении к Родине, где каждый видит свой "Land of Promise", где и как они собираются жить-работать и тд. В таком формате я отвечу на все вопросы интересующихся.
Скрывать мне нечего. Я горжусь тем, чего я достиг и к чему я стремлюсь.

Агрегат, мне тебя честно жаль. Сделай себе милость, не падай так низко.

DaNYer · Dec 18, 2004, 00:23

Agregat vse pravil'no skazal v principe...

DaNYer · Dec 18, 2004, 00:31

nashel taki mordu etoi sachs:

zadnii ryad, tretya sleva

Agregat · Dec 18, 2004, 03:41

Господин Зурабян, еще раз назовете меня сынком и я вас забаню за хамское отношение.

Agregat · Dec 18, 2004, 04:02

Да и еще, потрудитесь в точности сказать, где я ошибся в вашей биографии, чтобы обновить свои данные.

Джанлука · Dec 18, 2004, 05:21

"А может она была права?"

(Это после прочтения топика)

Ally_Z · Dec 18, 2004, 05:49

вам не надоело?

tig · Dec 18, 2004, 06:59

нда... не ожидал столь низкого и пошлого хамства...

RAMZES · Dec 18, 2004, 11:15

Ээээ жховурд, теперь изза этой хреновой статьи начнете друг на друга ополчаться да ?
Я не собираюсь судить, кто здесь прав, а кто виноват, это не мое дело. Байц де сенц чи карели че, теперь имеем то что имеем, чего вы друг на друга наезжаете ?
У вас что, есть друг к другу какие-ти личные претензии ? врядли...
так что не стоит портить отношения изза подобной извиняюсь херни
каждый живет так как ему хочется и никто ему в этом не судья
главное уметь давать ответ за свои поступки

[ Xelgen ] · Dec 18, 2004, 11:33

Эээ.. в лучших традициях будем грызть друг друга, попрекать и поливать грязью, когда нужно сплотиться и сделать что-то всеми вместе?

Закрываю и этот топик.
Часто что-то, в последнее время приходиться вмешиваться подобным образом...

Dec 17, 2004, 15:52	#46
PsilocybeLarvae the happiest girl Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Yerevan Posts: 2,521 Rep Power: 7 Reputation: 73	Hope for Armenia Copyright © 2004 Montreal Gazette Re: Gazette, Dec. 13, "Armenians discover independence stifling." My family and I were deeply saddened by the negative way my family's ancestral land was depicted. Although the economy is weak in Armenia, the country is striving toward democracy and is implementing constitutional and judicial reforms meeting democratic standards. Yes, 70 years of Soviet rule, the 1988 earthquake and the war with Azerbaijan in the 1990s have devastated Armenia's economy. But slowly and surely, Armenia is implementing a free-market economy. There's hope on the horizon. Let's give Armenia a chance . Alex Darian Montreal __________________ So much good, so much evil. Just add water. (c)

Dec 17, 2004, 21:16	#49
Н.К.Рерих Николай Константинович Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Гималаи Posts: 5,560 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 8 Reputation: 22	Agregat>> __________________ ЖЖ \| дом-страница \| мой блогспот Написание KERNEL-драйверов под win32 для чайников.

Dec 18, 2004, 03:41	#53
Agregat Грустно... Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Там, где всегда идут дожди Posts: 21,545 Rep Power: 11 Reputation: 169	Господин Зурабян, еще раз назовете меня сынком и я вас забаню за хамское отношение. __________________ http://аvitya.livejournal.com Хотели, как лучше, а получилось даже хуже... Лозунг шахматиста: На каждый шах - ответим матом!

Dec 18, 2004, 04:02	#54
Agregat Грустно... Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Там, где всегда идут дожди Posts: 21,545 Rep Power: 11 Reputation: 169	Да и еще, потрудитесь в точности сказать, где я ошибся в вашей биографии, чтобы обновить свои данные. __________________ http://аvitya.livejournal.com Хотели, как лучше, а получилось даже хуже... Лозунг шахматиста: На каждый шах - ответим матом!

Dec 18, 2004, 05:49	#56
Ally_Z Магистр Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Windland Posts: 800 Rep Power: 7 Reputation: 10	вам не надоело? __________________ Мне надоело быть благоразумной... Ф. Саган

Dec 16, 2004, 10:02
Vega$ The Magnolia Garden Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: там, где любят Posts: 1,446 Rep Power: 7 Reputation: 10	And again Ms. Sachs... взято отсюда For Armenia, deepening isolation and little hope By Susan Sachs The New York Times Wednesday, December 15, 2004 Landlocked and stuck in a cold war with two of its four neighbors, Armenia has rarely seemed so alone as in the past few months. Citing terrorism concerns, Russia abruptly sealed its border with Georgia in September and kept it closed for nearly two months, effectively cutting off the road that was the main transit route for Armenian trade with Russia. At the same time, Armenians had to watch from the sidelines as Azerbaijan and Georgia celebrated the completion of a large section of the pipeline to carry Caspian Sea oil to the Turkish port of Ceyhan. The $3 billion regional energy project bypasses Armenia entirely. Another bitter pill came in October, when the European Union's executive commission recommended that Turkey start negotiations for full membership without first having to end its rail and land blockade of Armenia. For many people in this impoverished country, the events added up to a scary reminder of their deepening isolation. "If nothing changes, Armenia will be left as an island," said Levon Barseghyan, a political activist in Gyumri, a rundown town on the railroad line that was closed by Turkey in 1992. "Everyone will forget about Armenia." As winter closes in, bringing the risk of new hardships in a country heavily dependent on imports and foreign aid, the prospects for change appear slim without outside intervention. Armenia's long-running conflict with Azerbaijan, its oil-producing neighbor to the east, remains one of the more intractable problems left from the breakup of the Soviet Union. Both countries claim Nagorno-Karabakh, a slice of land that is geographically inside the borders of Azerbaijan but is controlled by ethnic Armenian separatists. Their six-year war over Karabakh ended with a ceasefire in 1994, after 35,000 people were killed and an estimated one million people, most of them Azeri, became refugees. Turkey, Armenia's big neighbor to the west, has backed its Turkic ally, Azerbaijan, and closed its land border with Armenia. Turkish leaders have said they would not reopen the border until Armenia takes steps to withdraw its troops from in and around Karabakh. Meanwhile, peace negotiations have stalled despite mediation efforts by Russia, France and the United States. "On neither side is there a public mood that is conducive to compromise," said a western diplomat in Yerevan, speaking on condition of anonymity. The stalemate has left Armenia boxed in from the east and the west, excluded from the giant Caspian Sea energy pipeline that should provide hefty transit fees for the other countries it passes through. Turkish and Russian goods make their way to Armenia - Turkey is its seventh largest trading partner - but with the added cost of road transit through third countries like Georgia or by the planes that operate flights between Yerevan and Istanbul. Georgia's roads, however, have sometimes been closed because of political instability or, as was the case this fall, because of action by Russia. Armenia's only other direct outlet is through Iran to the south, where trade has been hampered by a poor road network and lack of rail lines. Given the impact of their unresolved conflict with Azerbaijan, Armenian officials have been eager to revive peace talks. But they have also have refused to make unilateral concessions on Karabakh, which they refer to as liberated Armenian territory, in exchange for Turkey's reopening of rail and road traffic. "We won't trade off Karabakh for a railroad," said the foreign minister, Vardan Oskanyan, adding that Armenians have learned to cope with their isolation. "Things are evolving around us. Let it be." Many Armenians, foreign donors and economists are not nearly as sanguine. While the economy has recovered from the near-total blockade on Armenia in the early 1990s, the gross domestic output is no higher than it was in 1988, before a devastating earthquake. A reopening of the eastern and western borders, according to international studies, would quickly boost its growth rate by as much as 50 percent. Meanwhile, despite infusions of cash from Armenians living abroad that account for more than 20 percent of the country's income, nearly half of the country's 3 million people live in poverty on less than $2 a day. The limited opportunities have contributed to an exodus of working-age Armenians since independence 13 years ago, with some estimates putting the population loss at nearly 30 percent. Such dire circumstances might be expected to provoke political unrest. But they have not noticeably weakened President Robert Kocharian, a Karabakh native and former commander of the separatist forces who was reelected to a second term last year. "Every day the government tells us our economy can flourish without opening the Turkish border and without solving the Karabakh problem," said Aram Abrahamyan, editor of the Aravot daily newspaper. "And the government propaganda succeeds with the common people." A very different scenario was predicted by a private research group called Armenia 2020, which has commissioned studies of the country's future based on a range of possible developments. One prediction was based on the status quo continuing for another 10 years. It concluded that "if there are no changes, there is no prosperity," said Arashes Kazakhetsyan, the director of the group. The Armenian government has focused much of its efforts on a two-pronged approach to Turkey. It has appealed directly to Turkish leaders to normalize relations. At the same time, it has tried to increase diplomatic pressure on Turkey, openly questioning Turkey's fitness to start European Union entry talks before it addresses Armenian grievances. In an interview, Oskanyan said he did not understand why European leaders ignored what he called Turkey's "faults and shortcomings" with regard to Armenia. "What is regrettable," he said, "is that Europe is closing its eyes on Turkey's petulance." Oskanyan stopped short of saying Turkey's bid should be rejected, although Armenian lobbying groups have been making that argument in Brussels. While Turkey has changed many of its policies over the last two years to win European Union acceptance, there has been no indication of a shift in its official line toward Armenia. Private contacts between Turks and Armenians will continue to be encouraged, said a senior Turkish diplomat in Ankara. But the diplomat said the political impasse must be broken by Armenia. "We can't change our policy on the Azeris," he said. "So the first move has to come from Armenia. We would like to see an opening, even a small opening, on Nagorno-Karabakh." ----- ba... aj tenc baner __________________ Непрекращаемый поцелуй мира на щеке ©

Dec 17, 2004, 23:40	#50
Lucifer Lucifer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Erevan/Boston Posts: 111 Rep Power: 7 Reputation: 10	Агрегат, сынок, ты заметно нервничаешь и злишься (хотя в том, что ты находишься в глупой ситуации винить можешь только самого себя). От этого ты становишься все более смешным и мелочным. От мандража ты даже приписал моей скромной биографии несколько ложных элементов (хотя реальное положение, уверен, тебе прекрасно известно). Новый гордый ученик Сакс? В глубине души понимая, что ты находишься в положении нагадившего на ковёр кота, тем не менее пытаешься перевернуть с больной головы на здоровую- попрекаешь меня Арменией, хотя в моих предыдущих постингах про свою любовь к Родине не было и речи. Неужели ты полагал, что таким мелкопакостным поступком сможешь вызвать у меня что-либо кроме улыбки жалости к тебе? Опускаться до того, что-бы отвечать на мелкопакастные выпады я не буду. Если кому интересно, можете открыть новый топик, где живущие в Армении и за её пределами расскажут о своём отношении к Родине, где каждый видит свой "Land of Promise", где и как они собираются жить-работать и тд. В таком формате я отвечу на все вопросы интересующихся. Скрывать мне нечего. Я горжусь тем, чего я достиг и к чему я стремлюсь. Агрегат, мне тебя честно жаль. Сделай себе милость, не падай так низко.

Dec 18, 2004, 00:23	#51
DaNYer Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 3,760 Rep Power: 0 Reputation: 10	Agregat vse pravil'no skazal v principe...

Dec 18, 2004, 00:31	#52
DaNYer Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 3,760 Rep Power: 0 Reputation: 10	nashel taki mordu etoi sachs: zadnii ryad, tretya sleva

Dec 18, 2004, 05:21	#55
Джанлука Доктор Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Moscow Posts: 1,777 Rep Power: 5 Reputation: 57	"А может она была права?" (Это после прочтения топика)

Dec 18, 2004, 06:59	#57
tig спасибо, коллега Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: yerevan, am Posts: 2,090 Rep Power: 6 Reputation: 10	нда... не ожидал столь низкого и пошлого хамства... __________________ коллега коллеге - спасибо

Dec 18, 2004, 11:15	#58
RAMZES VIP Faraon Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Пески сахары Posts: 2,895 Rep Power: 6 Reputation: 10	Ээээ жховурд, теперь изза этой хреновой статьи начнете друг на друга ополчаться да ? Я не собираюсь судить, кто здесь прав, а кто виноват, это не мое дело. Байц де сенц чи карели че, теперь имеем то что имеем, чего вы друг на друга наезжаете ? У вас что, есть друг к другу какие-ти личные претензии ? врядли... так что не стоит портить отношения изза подобной извиняюсь херни каждый живет так как ему хочется и никто ему в этом не судья главное уметь давать ответ за свои поступки __________________ Храни тебя Господь в сухом и прохладном месте...

Dec 18, 2004, 11:33	#59
[ Xelgen ] инсценирующий жизнь Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Fireplace of Ecotopia Posts: 4,157 Rep Power: 7 Reputation: 45	Эээ.. в лучших традициях будем грызть друг друга, попрекать и поливать грязью, когда нужно сплотиться и сделать что-то всеми вместе? Закрываю и этот топик. Часто что-то, в последнее время приходиться вмешиваться подобным образом... __________________ ...ибо... Rgrdz. [ Кселджэн ]

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