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Old 25.06.2002, 17:14   #31
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2 Iguanus:
U tebya poyavlyaetca skroling vertikal'nij v umbrela..
(esli eto ne special'no to isprav')

Code:
<table width=&quot;100%&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; cellspacing=&quot;0&quot; cellpadding=&quot;0&quot; height=&quot;101%&quot;>
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    <td height=&quot;100%&quot; align=&quot;center&quot; valign=&quot;middle&quot;> 
      <table width=&quot;232&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; cellspacing=&quot;0&quot; cellpadding=&quot;0&quot; height=&quot;226&quot;>
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    <td height=&quot;22&quot; align=&quot;center&quot;><img src=&quot;images/copyrights.gif&quot; width=&quot;318&quot; height=&quot;13&quot;></td>
  </tr>
2 TheArt..
ya dumayu ne stoit eshe raz govarit' o priimushstvax i nedostatkax flesha eshe raz..

estestveno u nego est' nedostatki.. i po mne samij bol'shoj to 4to 4ajnik u kotorogo na kompe net plugina pri soobshenii zagruzit' flash skoree vsego otvetit "No"

No!
u flesh est' drugie neosporimie priimushestva i estestveno avtor s klientom sami reshayut 4to imeno dlya ix site bol'she vsego podxodit..

neskol'ko budu4i znakomim s deyatel'nostyu Macmilan mne kajetca oni sdelali pravil'nij vibor i funkciya sita zaklyu4aetca skoree v presentacii 4em v 4em to drugom
i s etoj zada4ej Iguanos vpolne dostojno spravilsya..

a esli govorit' o tom 4to poiskoviki ne najdut etot site to li4no po mne eto problema daleko ne Iguanusa a samogo clienta..
eto jelatel'nij faktor no ne samij glavnij v takogo roda rabotax..

ob etom mi daje o moem goldenpage govorili..

dumayu 4to ya prav..
esli net to.. s udovol'stviem vislushayu dovodi..
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Old 25.06.2002, 17:26   #32
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Ty protivorechish sam sebe:
"...avtor s klientom sami reshayut 4to imeno dlya ix site bol'she vsego podxodit.."
i tut je:
"...po mne eto problema daleko ne Iguanusa a samogo clienta.."
no comments

Moia tochka zrenia na vzaimootnoshenia avtor-zakazchik...
Designer ne doljen govorit: "ia mogu eto vam vse sdelat vo Flash!" tak kak zachastuiu, client ne znaet, chto emu nujno, ne orientiruetsia ni v texologiax, ni v rynke, i ne imeet predstavlenia o specifikax web-a
Zadachei designera iavliaetsia OB'EKTIVNO predstavit VSE vozmojnye varianty, so vsemi ix plusami i minusami. Uveren chto Iguanus etogo ne sdelal, on prosto skazal ""ya sdelaiu vam vo flash TAKOI site - zakachaetes!!!"

A mejdu tem, pri razrabotke pervoi versii site-a my predlagali sdelat flash zastavku i elementy... no posle DETALNOGO obsujdenia s zakazchikom prishli k vyvodu, chto flash ne nujen.

Poimite - ya ne govoru chto etot site ploxoi. Naoborot - on ochen xorosh. No on prosto sledstvie neorytnosti Iguanusa v rabote s clientom.
Eto ochen vajnaia problema: kogda ty lubish flash i umeesh rabotat v osnovnom tolko s nim, to kraine trudno otdat preimuschestvo HTML-u. No nado byt chestnym s zakazchikom. I glavnoe - s kollegami.
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Old 25.06.2002, 17:34   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by [the]artbox:
Ty protivorechish sam sebe:
"...avtor s klientom sami reshayut 4to imeno dlya ix site bol'she vsego podxodit.."
i tut je:
"...po mne eto problema daleko ne Iguanusa a samogo clienta.."
no comments
ya ne protivore4u..
sami znaete kak poroj trudno s klientami..
prixodish k nim a oni tebe ya xo4u tut vikrutas.. tut 4tob bul'knulo..
i t.d...

tak 4to protivore4ij net...
mojesh komentirovat'.. ))

nas4et ostal'nogo ne sporyu..
tut vsetaki re4' v forume o drugom..
ne o lyudyax..
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Old 25.06.2002, 17:42   #34
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Tut rech idet ob oshibkax site-a, na professionalnom urovne. My ne v birulki igraem.
Eju poniatno chto s tochki zrenia obyvatenlia site ochen xoroshi, no my obsujdaem professionalnye problemy.
A ploxaia rabota s clientom - eto toje oshibka.
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Old 25.06.2002, 18:42   #35
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2 [the]artbox:
Sleduya etoj logike mi mojem vzyat' gepoti4eskij site i na4at' ego kritikovat'..
ibo daje ne sushestvuyushij site mojno otkritikovat'..

mojno s tem je uspexom utverjdat' 4to HTML-om soberat' site uje ne pravil'no.. i delat' vse na XML i obratno 4to XML trebuet mnogo vremeni v stadii razrabotki poetomu raspilyatca na nego bez nujdi bezsmisleno..
a tak je 4to moda vsetaki dektuet nali4ie flasha (po neobxodimosti kone4no) a ego nali4ie dobavlyaet lishnie problemi..

tak kakim doljen bit' sovremenij site..?
kakie texnologii doljni bit' ispol'zovani..?

kak je nujno rabotat' s klientom..?
pri tom mi poroj jaluemsya 4to klient diktuet svoj stil' (kotorij v osnovnom bivaet samim neumestnim s nashej to4ki zreniya)
a kogda vsetaki vipolnyaem zakaz na4inayut letet' kamni sostoroni koleg kotorie s4itayut 4to nado bilo klientu prodiktovat' svoi trebovaniya...

zolotoj seredini net.. i navryadli budet
poetomu s etoj to4ki zreniya ya s4iatyu tu zada4u kotoruyu sam sebe (ili tembole client) postavil Iguanus - on reshil..
i polu4ilos' s to4ki zreniya dezajna (IMHO) o4en' stil'no i krasivo...

2-oj vopros v tom naskol'ko bili opravdoni te neudobstva kotorie vizivaet Flash eto uje sovsem sub'ektiv..
nam, ne xazyaevam etogo sita, trudno utverjdat' 4to site svoej celi ne slujit..

ya povtoryus': site prezentacionij (zabud'te o magazine) i on polnostyu etomu sootvetsvuet..

drugoj vopros ya dumayu uje ne budem obsujdat'.. klon on ili ne klon..
ya vsetaki sklonyayus' k tomu 4to on ne klon..
prosto Iguanus vzyal ideyu.. i voplotil ee po svoemu.. tembolee 4to opyat' povtaryus' clipart o4en' simpati4nij ispol'zovan..
(Iguanus CD mne dash..? )

i v dogonku..
ya me4atayu ubedit' klientov delat' vse po svoemu esli Iguanusu eto udalos'.. to tembolee halal iran.. mihat lav sirun gorc ira portfelioi me4 kara hangist avelacni..
(orinak es 4em karoxanum hangist abmdr-e avelacnem vorovetev vsetaki stile im srtov 4i..)
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Old 25.06.2002, 19:20   #36
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Ari es hima logikakox anem
"neudobstva kotorie vizivaet Flash eto uje sovsem sub'ektiv"
Kak raz naoborot - problemy flasha ochen daje obektivny i vsem izvestny. VOSPRIATIE flasha - vot chto subektivno.

Ya uje ustal povtoriat - to chto site xoroshi(krasivii) ia ne osparivaiu. To chto ne provedena gramotnaia rabota s clientom - eto fakt.

"ya povtoryus': site prezentacionij (zabud'te o magazine) i on polnostyu etomu sootvetsvuet"
esli site presentacionnyi - gde yazykovye versii?
gde alttegi? gde HTMLversia?
Eto ochen krasivaia flash-podelka, a ne sereznyi prezentacionnyi site.

Vy vse nalepili sebe na flaza flash-shory i nichego ne vidite? Gde usability, gde accessibility? Gde alternativnye versii?
Da chto vy dumaete - krasivosti dostatochno?!
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Old 25.06.2002, 19:26   #37
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2 [the]artbox:
mojet bit' ya i ne prav..
no po mne odnoj versii (bez yazikov) dostato4no..
krasoti toje dostato4no.. (dlya prezentacionosti)

po mne cel' prezentacionogo sita ostavit' vpe4atlenie... imeno na prostogo obivatelya kotorij zaxodit i govorit: oj kak klassno - i eto rezul'tat i dovol'no vajnij..

pro usabiliti i vse takoe ne sporyu..

nu a dlya primera: web studii ved' obxodyatca davol'no 4asto odnoj .. flesh versiej..?!
i etogo vpolne dostato4no.. HTML jelatelen.. no k sojaleniyu ne obyazatelen po mne dlya takogo produkta..

__
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pomoemu mi uje na pustom meste sporim.. ))
daje ne sporim.. ) a ne prixodim k koncensusu..
ibo ne znaem 4ego avtor dobivalsya..
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Old 25.06.2002, 19:33   #38
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Naschet posikovikov:

Situachiya takova:
Esli uminy posikovik videt v site flash, bez texta, on indexiruet <META.///
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Old 25.06.2002, 19:37   #39
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2 VX:
a esli ne umnij..? ))
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Old 25.06.2002, 19:59   #40
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2Arik
"nu a dlya primera: web studii ved' obxodyatca davol'no 4asto odnoj .. flesh versiej..?!"

Vooooot tut my i podoshli k voprosu, kotory ia zadal s samogo nachala - razve Macmillan flash-studia?

Ne mojet byt odinakovyx site-ov dlia firmy odejdy i dlia banka. Ne mojet byt odinakovyx po strukture siteov i raznyx po profilu predpriatii!

A razgovor ne na pustom meste - a imenno tam gde ia xotel - on pereshel prosto iz ploskosti odnogo site-a, v bolee obschie temy.
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Old 25.06.2002, 20:05   #41
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2 [the]artbox:
nu makmilan zanimaetca esli mne ne izmenyaet poligrafiej to4nee knigoizdaniem..

tak 4to flash vsetaki podxodit...
toest' mojno tol'ko im i obojtis'...
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Old 25.06.2002, 20:33   #42
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LOL Arik ty zaciklilsia
POCHEMU mojno oboitis tolko flashem?
Mojesh proargumentirovat?
Mojet ty i prav? Mojesh dokazat, chem obosnovano tvoe zaiavlenie?

Naprimer kak ty schitaesh, duraki li 90% clientov i dizainerov, deliaiuschix alternativnye i HTML versii?
Esli by flasha bylo by dostatochno... hmm kak po tvoemu, pochemu by ne sdelat forum vo flash?
Eto ved vozmojno! Pochemu je ne sdelat nikto?

2groul
Pochemu molchish? ILI ty pishesh dliiiiiiinnyi post?
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Old 25.06.2002, 21:01   #43
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pomoemu toje zaciklilsya.. )
no ne tol'ko ya odin.. )
xodim vokrug i okolo.. ))))))

ya govaryu: HTML versiya eto xorosho.. ibo ne vsegda u 4ajnikov est' flash
no....

esli 4elovek soberaet site tol'ko v flashe .. to 4toj.. ego vibor.. esli emu naplivat' na userov kotorie ne stavyat plugin zna4it eto ego ustraivaet.. )

kstati 2advanced toje obxoditca tol'ko flashom..
tol'ko ne govorite 4to eto studiya.. i oni mogut sebe eto pozvolit'.. v danom slu4ae pomoemu bez raznici.. (v moem videnii celi etogo sita)
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Old 26.06.2002, 00:12   #44
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2 Theartbox
eto uzhe davno obxoditsya pri pomoshi zakomentirovannyx strok .

2 VX
Poiskovik v pervuyu ochered' ishet meta, i lish potom perexodit k soderzhaniyu, esli net ni togo ni drugogo, prosto zapisyvaet URL i bol'she nikogda tuda ne vozvrashaetsya.
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Old 26.06.2002, 00:27   #45
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kto-to xotel link...

http://www.2advanced.com/
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